Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context.
Before posting, please check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions of the source. If after reviewing, you feel a new post is warranted, please be sure to include the following information, if available:
  • Links to past discussion of the source on this board.
  • Source. The book or web page being used as the source. For a book, include the author, title, publisher, page number, etc. For an online source, please include links. For example: [].
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RfC - CoinDesk as a source[edit]

Should CoinDesk be removed as a source from all articles on Wikipedia? --Molochmeditates (talk) 13:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Survey (CoinDesk)[edit]

Previous Discussion: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_251#RfC_on_use_of_CoinDesk

RSP Entry: CoinDesk RSP Entry

Please note: Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Blockchain_and_cryptocurrencies

There is currently no consensus on whether CoinDesk should be considered a [[questionable source. Therefore I do not support the blanket removal of CoinDesk references especially in cases where it leaves statements unsourced and articles incomplete (including several criticisms). Instead, editors should refer to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS.

An experienced editor is removing all CoinDesk references from cryptocurrency related articles on Wikipedia. My question is simply whether there should there be a blanket removal of all CoinDesk references from Wikipedia, even in cases where it is not used to establish notability, irrespective of context? Here is a small sample of 10 affected articles, in no particular order (there are too many to sort through):

So the question is,

  • Yes all references to CoinDesk should be removed from Wikipedia irrespective of context
  • No do not remove all references to CoinDesk per previous RfC, and instead use the context to determine whether to use the reference or not (e.g. do not use CoinDesk sources to establish notability).

Note: This is not an RfC for individual article cleanup. I am sure we can all agree that many of the cryptocurrency related articles can be improved. --Molochmeditates (talk) 01:42, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Remove it - speaking as the editor in question, here's what my thinking was:
  • In general: cryptocurrency/blockchain articles are magnets for spam and advocacy. And crypto news sites are bad sources, per the previous discussion on this topic - they appear to be specialist press, but function as advocacy. You will see every possible thing being spun as good news for cryptos. We don't need crypto sites - there's plenty of mainstream coverage and peer-reviewed academic coverage to establish notability. Using crypto sites as sources in your article is a bad sign at AFD, and using mainstream RSes and peer-reviewed academic RSes is a good sign at AFD - so the observed working consensus of Wikipedia editors in practice is strongly in this direction.
  • In particular: Coindesk has a terrible habit of running articles on things that don't exist yet, barely-reskinned press releases and so on. There are plenty of refs that are entirely factual content! But you can say the same about blogs, wikis and other sources that aren't trustworthy in any practical sense. And this is even though Coindesk has an editor, I know a pile of the journalists and they're honestly trying to do a good job, etc. Quite a lot of the Coindesk refs I removed were to puffed-up nonsense articles, or in support of blatantly promotional article content. So the argument that editors will check the context doesn't work in practice - using the Coindesk articles that happen to be properly-made news coverage only encourages the use of their bad stuff, on the basis of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, which is the most frequent AFD argument from crypto spammers.
  • I urge those thinking about this to reread WP:GS/Crypto. Just think what sort of editing would cause that harsh a community sanction to be put into place. Those conditions haven't changed. Letting just a waffer-thin crypto site in the door will invite the spammers back.
  • I must note I'm arguably speaking against my own interest here - I make some money as a crypto journalist, often publishing in these very sites. I know my stuff is good and my editors are good! But I also know there's excellent reason it's not good for Wikipedia - when we have mainstream sources. If some subject or fact isn't notable enough to make it into mainstream or peer-reviewed sources, perhaps it's not notable enough for Wikipedia.
  • For a recent example that did make the crypto press, check this out. (I spoke to them with my Wikipedia editor hat on for once, not my crypto journalist hat.) That's about spammy interests trying to weasel their stuff into just one page. Repeat for a large swathe of the crypto articles on Wikipedia, 'cos that sort of thing is entirely usual. Mainstream-only is good in practice. (cc Retimuko and Ladislav Mecir, who are also mentioned in that piece.)
  • And, really - you think crypto sites should be used for BLPs? We have super-stringent BLP rules also for excellent reasons. I can't see how a crypto site would ever be acceptable as a source for a BLP, except maybe as an accepted subject-published link or similar - David Gerard (talk) 17:36, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
- David Gerard (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
@David Gerard: I'm skeptical of your claim "I must note I'm arguably speaking against my own interest here", considering that you published Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain, a book that is highly critical of cryptocurrencies. How would your !vote to remove all references to CoinDesk go against your own interests? Since you "make some money as a crypto journalist", wouldn't removing all references to CoinDesk effectively eliminate your biggest competitor and/or adversary from being mentioned on Wikipedia? — Newslinger talk 12:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I mean that my own work in the ones I write for (which include Coindesk) wouldn't be citable. If you think you have a substantiable claim of COI on my part, you know where WP:COIN is, else I'll file that with all the other unsubstantiated claims that not being an advocate means I should stop editing in the area - David Gerard (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Your statement makes more sense alongside the fact that you have contributed to CoinDesk. Ironically, the fact that CoinDesk published your opinion piece "2017: The ‘Butt’ of Bitcoin’s Joke" makes them less biased than I had previously assumed. — Newslinger talk 18:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Unreliable source - beyond the issues that David Gerrard lays out above, crypto news sites also have had issues with content being gneerated for pay but not noted as such. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
    • to be fair, Coindesk has never been credibly accused of pay-for-play, and there's no good reason to think they'd do that. However, their editorial line has long been basically boosterism for cryptos (IMO) - David Gerard (talk) 06:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
      That is fair. However, beyond that for all the reasons you've mentioned, which I didn't bother to repeat since you'd laid them out in depth, I continue to believe it is an unreliable source. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Keep (do not remove all references to CoinDesk - here's my thinking and take on the matter:
  • The previous RfC did a good job of getting consensus on how to treat CoinDesk articles. It clearly stated that CoinDesk shouldn't be used to establish notability but otherwise isn't barred from being used as a source. Why the sudden change in this policy by one editor deciding unilaterally that they no longer wish to adhere to this consensus?
  • Yes, we all know the usual criticisms of crypto press. That's already debated and known to editors. If there are individual instances to consider incorrect usage of CoinDesk, e.g. to establish notability, by all means they should be deleted. But as long as it isn't the policy, I don't support a blanket removal of all the material from literally hundreds of articles affected.
  • A lot of the material that's been removed is actually criticism of the projects. The bias is easy to understand - a lot of the overly promotional puffery has been removed by diligent editors already. This means removing all the CoinDesk references has made the problem of crypto-puffery much worse.
  • Several instances of purely encyclopedic content was removed for using CoinDesk as a purely descriptive secondary source (e.g. discussion on popular standards). This hurts the quality of the articles from an encyclopedic perspective.
  • This blanket removal of CoinDesk references already goes against the general consensus previously reached. There are literally hundreds (probably thousands?) of edits to go through, and I don't think it's feasible to go through them all to determine if the removal was justified. In many cases I've reviewed, I think the removal was unjustified, and in several other cases, it was totally justified. It's very hard to review now after these edits.
  • In conclusion, yes, there is a problem with crypto puff material entering the articles, but the solution isn't to ban crypto press. Crypto press both has the puffiest pieces and the most critical pieces on crypto projects. As editors, we want to see a balanced article, but that balance gets lost of we cannot cite the criticisms. One editor shouldn't decide to remove criticism and encyclopedic content especially going against previous consensus

I am of course happy to comply with a consensus view that CoinDesk should never be used as a reference on Wikipedia, if that's what comes out of this RfC. In that case, we should edit the RSP entry to reflect this consensus. Also, a lot of articles now have material that are unreferenced. There is a good amount of work to be done to go through these and remove the unsourced material or find other sources. --Molochmeditates (talk) 19:39, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

  • Keep as a source per Molochmeditates. CoinDesk's role in promoting the use of cryptocurrencies is no different from PinkNews's role in promoting acceptance of LGBT communities worldwide. Recognise their bias, and use discretion when citing the source; but do not systemically reject an entire topic area from Wikipedia just because it is in some way problematic or difficult to write about. feminist (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Most of them should be removed. But it should be done more carefully. A lot of them can be replaced by mainstream sources. Examples:
Andreessen Horowitz -
Wall Street Journal "blog" about the same thing.
Initial coin offering -
"The SEC ruled that celebrity ICO endorsements must disclose the amount of any compensation paid for the endorsement." Covered by Reuters.
BitLicense -
"In July 2016, San Francisco-based Ripple was awarded the second BitLicense." Covered by Reuters.
There should be zero coin news references used in an article if possible. Like do you really need to use CoinDesk to write a good article about blockchain?
So if it's an important detail, look for a mainstream source. If it's only on a coin news site you should explain why it's needed on the talk page or edit summary. Blumpf (talk) 21:18, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Delete all references from Coindesk and other cryptopropaganda I'd thought that this was already a settled matter. There are reliable references to cryptomatters, e.g. Bloomberg, Reuters, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, the Financial Times, BBC, CBC and sometimes in Fortune and some of the cable news networks. There's no reason not to just use these sources. The cryptopropaganda network is all shills all the time as far as I'm concerned. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Do not delete all references. There is not enough evidence to indict CoinDesk as a source that publishes false or fabricated information. While CoinDesk is a biased and non-independent source due to the cryptocurrency holdings of its parent company (Digital Currency Group), I don't consider the content in CoinDesk to be sponsored content, and I don't think a removal of "all references" to CoinDesk is justified. In my opinion, a source only crosses the line when it publishes calls to action that support its interests. CoinDesk's articles do not contain that type of promotional language. CoinDesk is much closer to TorrentFreak (RSP entry), which is another specialist publication that assumes the role of an advocacy organization, than The Points Guy's sponsored content (RSP entry), which contains actual sales pitches. However, CoinDesk should not be used to establish notability (per existing consensus), and editors should consider whether content from CoinDesk constitutes undue weight before including it into an article. — Newslinger talk 12:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
    To "delete all references" to a source "irrespective of context" is a very serious action that is only taken when a source is listed on the spam blacklist. The "Yes" position in this RfC goes further than deprecation, because deprecation respects WP:CONTEXTMATTERS while the "Yes" position here does not. If CoinDesk is not eligible for the spam blacklist, then there is no valid reason to "delete all references" to it "irrespective of context". — Newslinger talk 01:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Remove all, but try to replace with mainstream sources when at all possible, per Blumpf and others. The FRS/Legobot sent me. EllenCT (talk) 19:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Remove all. Mainstream sources are fine. Coindesk is biased, and most editors don't have context to identify the cases where they might be able to be a neutral source. – SJ + 03:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes - Remove all, unreliable is unreliable, context doesn't magically make dishonest reporting honest. They have form. Bacondrum (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes - Remove all, for the reason stated by SJ. Peter K Burian (talk) 15:35, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes - Remove all - Coindesk and publications like it are effectively WP:PROFRINGE sources advocating a worldview about cryptocurrencies that is not reality-based. We should be blacklisting it. Simonm223 (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Keep as source per feminist. Mainstream sources are preferable, and coindesk should not be relied as a central source, but it's reasonably WP:THIRDPARTY, and often contains details that can't be found elsewhere. Forbes72 (talk) 19:00, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Remove all. It's kind of like using the Discotute as a source for the validity of creationism. Coindesk writers have drunk deep of the kool-aid and assiduously maintain the kayfabe of crypto. Promotional or uncritical commentary on cryptobollocks is pretty much the last thing we need here. Guy (Help!) 10:42, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (CoinDesk)[edit]

I think we need to be cautious here. Crypto/blockchain is a rather large field, but awash with people fighting over virtual dollars so sources are going to be iffy. But in other fields - for example, video games, we also know there is a lot of specialized media and a LOT of "blogs" trying to be big news sites that we at the VG project reject. That said, reviewing lists of crypto news site lists, a lot are owned by companies directly involved in the crypto game so yes, COI/self-promotion has to be a factor here. Coinbank seems to fall into that but its also the first major site after you get past CNBC and Forbes (which includes their contributors) in this list (which of course may also be suspect). I think we need some strong guidance to white/black-list sites and make it clear that sites that are knownly run by crypto backers should be considered generally a non-RS and certainly not independent for notability concerns. --Masem (t) 23:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

"sites that are knownly run by crypto backers should be considered generally a non-RS and certainly not independent for notability concern" - but that's literally all the crypto news sites, though. Every single one. Is there an exception you had in mind? - David Gerard (talk) 07:21, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, I have not had any good chance to review them in any depth, their connections, and how others see those sources. For example, if we have non-crypto-based RSes routinely quoting facts from a crypto source, even if that source is not truly independent, that still suggests that that source would be seen as authorative. All the concerns related to WP:NORG obviously should be applied to any crypto-related article, but it still doesn't mean throwing the entire work out if others see part of it as reliable. But I have spent literally only like 10 minutes looking into this, nothing I would consider suitable to say such exist.
I do worry that this rush of mass removals without a clear consensus is into WP:FAIT territory, even though I suspect 95% of them removals would be proper, at the end of the day. --Masem (t) 14:06, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
I think your point about RS quoting something like CoinDesk is a fair point and I would hope that David Gerrard has stopped removing CoinDesk as a reference while this RfC is being conducted. However, because Crypto/blockchain is a substantial field we have non-industry sources covering notable organizations/developments regularly. We can rely on them without having to figure "Is CoinDesk acting as a booster of the industry here or is it reporting news of significance?" Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:57, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

No, do not remove all references to CoinDesk. As always, reliability is determined in context. Per Obsidi, "They have an editorial staff and an editorial policy. They do issue corrections". Benjamin (talk) 00:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

  • I see one very rarely indeed. A recent worked example of Coindesk being a sloppy and misleading source: [1] It's particularly egregious because literally nothing they claim is new - including the precise technical claim, which was detailed in InfoQ (which is a specialist RS) two years ago and its application to blockchains the same year (though that's a primary source, not an RS, it's the counterexample that Coindesk has repeated a marketing lie unexamined). Will Coindesk correct it? Still waiting ... Coindesk has a long history of repeating any press release nonsense that sounds like good news for blockchain. This means that a Coindesk reference cannot be safely used unless the editor has separately verified that this time they're not just repeating boosterism - at which point you're doing original research and should either find a RS or just not do that - David Gerard (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
As this RfC has run for 30 days, I've submitted a request for closure at WP:RFCL § Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC - CoinDesk as a source. — Newslinger talk 19:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

RfC: The American Conservative[edit]

There is very little comment on this publication. It is self-evidently somewhat to the right, but that is not an impediment to being accepted as a reliable source (given that all non-scientific publications will always carry some degree of bias). It has variously been described herein as a "major site", "reliable source", and "reputable yet biased". It includes much comment from academics and current and former (mostly the latter) intergovernmental agency and government staff members. Seeking comment as it is a significant site. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 11:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

oops. ta-da!
Most if not all of the magazine is opinion articles, which are generally not considered reliable sources. Note for example the first article in your link, by Robert W. Merry, which says, "The Democratic contenders want open borders and free healthcare and to pay for it by hiking taxes." In fact none of them call for open borders and most of them oppose free health care. TFD (talk) 11:46, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
"Most if not all" is based on your reading the strap line of one article then, by this veteran former WSJ reporter. I noted that it takes a right-view above. So option 2 additional considerations is reasonable. But it includes much serious reporting e.g. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 12:06, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
I really wish people would stop knee-jerk repeating "opinion pieces are bad" as if they were repeating policy. See also WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. GMGtalk 14:33, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
The American Conservative is the largest outlet in the heterodox paleoconservative movement, a small right-wing movement in the US, and a very valuable source for paleoconservative ideas. However it is still mainly an opinion outlet and has faced criticism on issues of race. I would say it is useful for opinion but should be used with caution on general reporting due to its inherent paleoconservative bias. Toa Nidhiki05 12:08, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

The American Conservative exists to promote a “Main Street” conservatism that opposes unchecked power in government and business; promotes the flourishing of families and communities through vibrant markets and free people; and embraces realism and restraint in foreign affairs based on America’s vital national interests.

I would use The American Conservative with caution, which is how we currently treat media from most advocacy organizations, including the Cato Institute (RSP entry), Media Matters for America (RSP entry), and the Media Research Center (RSP entry). As the publication is biased or opinionated, in-text attribution is recommended. — Newslinger talk 20:00, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I would argue it is quite similar to Cato, even more so because it is the only major paleoconservative outlet. It’s basically the flagship publication of that movement and was even founded by Pat Buchanan himself. It’s not really a “straight news” or even news-opinion publication imo. Toa Nidhiki05 20:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
    • Absolutely. I would treat both similarly. — Newslinger talk 00:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Cambial Yellowing, what you call serious reporting is actually an opinion piece. The author is commenting on a story that appeared in the New York Times about Trump's plans to increase the nuclear stockpile. There is absolutely no reason why we would use this as a source instead of the New York Times article that reported the story. GMG, it's not that opinion pieces are bad, but that policy says they are rarely reliable sources. Mostly they repeat facts already reported in reliable sources. When they report original information, they are not subject to the same editorial control as news reporting. So one writer may say Trump is a Russian agent while another says he did not collude with Russia. One may say climate change will destroy the world in 10 years while another will say there is no climate change. TFD (talk) 00:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
What policy says is Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. But I have also seen this argument used to delete at AfD, and used to argue against using attributed statement of opinion from independently notable authors, writing opinion pieces in iron clad reliable publications. GMGtalk 01:32, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
That's from Biased or opinionated sources. I was referring to News organizations: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." The two points are consistent: opinion pieces and biased sources are reliable for what their authors say. Some biased sources may also be reliable for facts as well, if the publishers made sufficient steps to ensure accuracy. Academic papers and books for example are almost always biased, which is why they are written. TFD (talk) 02:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, usable with attribution especially if the author has a particular reputation (for weight). Some independent analysis report it as "unfair interpretation of the news", "hyper partisan right", so unreliable for statements of fact. —PaleoNeonate – 02:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
  • The American Conservative is fine for accurately reporting the opinions of its writers and we can presume its stories are honestly the writing of those to whom they're bylined; it has a legal personality in a jurisdiction in which it can be held liable for libel and it has a stable and consistent history of publication. However it does not have, nor does it claim to have, newsgathering capability and is essentially an opinion publication. One of the standards we should use to evaluate reliability is whether unambiguously RS cite its reporting. When I do a Google News search for "according to the American Conservative" or "the American Conservative reported" I don't get any meaningful results. So I would say it's reliable for attributing statements to its own writers but I would not use it for Who/What/Why facts like the size of a brush fire in Montana. Chetsford (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Seems professional, center-right publication. Mostly seems to be a venue for collected articles rather than in-house reporting, so editors should focus on individual author reputation and specific articles. Quality if biased contributors seem the rule, so would expect that it is informed and well-written but is not balanced or comprehensive. Editors should refer to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and be aware this is an advocacy like SPLC and others used as RS -- and like those, typically attribution should be used per WP:BIASED. CHeers Markbassett (talk) 07:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad RFC - what is the reason for raising this RFC? What is the actual concrete issue that we are supposed to be addressing? These general RFC on reliability of sources are swerving into WP:FORUM territory. FOARP (talk) 09:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
As this RfC has run for 30 days, I've submitted a request for closure at WP:RFCL § Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: The American Conservative. — Newslinger talk 22:59, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Users should apply WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Except in extreme cases, which this is not, it's far preferable to a blanket rule that thus-and-such a source is or is not WP:RS.Adoring nanny (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Taki's Magazine[edit]

I've seen Taki's Magazine listed as a source a number of times recently and I'm worried by its use, it appears to be something similar to Breitbart. Before I go removing it and related claims from articles I'd like some feedback regarding its reliability. Which of the following best describes the reliability of Taki's Magazine?

  1. Generally reliable for factual reporting
  2. Unclear or additional considerations apply
  3. Generally unreliable for factual reporting
  4. Publishes false or fabricated information

Cheers Bacondrum (talk) 00:56, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

pure opinion, not reporting--and not particularly good at it. It's not as reckless as Breitbart, but that isn't saying much. Opinion is never a reliable source for anything other than the view of the author, and I don't think their authors are notable enough to have views worth including. DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Absolutely unreliable - it's well-known for publishing racist garbage. Its managing editor was once noted neo-Nazi and white supremacist Richard Spencer, and it counts among its contributors a number of fringe extremist racists such as Peter Brimelow and John Derbyshire (fired from National Review once his white supremacist work at Taki's Mag became publicly known) [2] NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:00, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Option 3 or 4. Taki's Magazine (a.k.a. Taki's Mag or Takimag) occupies a similar niche as VDARE (RSP entry), which was deprecated in December 2018. The site is biased or opinionated, and its published opinions are very likely to constitute undue weight. Taki's Magazine's reputation has been panned by a number of reliable sources:
Quotes about Taki's Magazine from reliable sources
Besides his podcast, Goad’s main platform is Taki’s Magazine, an extreme right-wing publication with an irreverent tone that promises its “only ideology is to be against the junk culture foisted upon us by Hollywood and the mainstream media.” Along with Goad and McInnes, it publishes authors like John Derbyshire, who was fired from the conservative National Review (RSP entry) after he wrote an article for Taki’s about advising his teenage children to “stay out of heavily black neighborhoods.” It described black people as “ferociously hostile to whites” and is now listed in the “greatest hits” section on Taki’s website.

Taki’s contributors overlap with those at the hate site VDARE, including Steve Sailer — cited four times by TRS users — whose writing is largely dedicated to opposing immigration and drawing a false link between race and intelligence.

"McInnes, Molyneux, and 4chan: Investigating pathways to the alt-right", Southern Poverty Law Center (RSP entry)

The article that got him fired wasn't actually posted at National Review but at Taki's Magazine, an outlet run by millionaire paleocon Taki Theodoracopulos that was formerly edited by outspoken white supremacist Richard B. Spencer and has run articles by Theodoracopulos in support of the Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn.

This has been the trend for paleoconservative writing in the past decade or two. It's largely turned from mainstream conservative outfits to openly racist venues like VDARE, Taki's, American Renaissance, and the Occidental Observer. Admirably, the American Conservative has held the line and resisted crossing over into open white nationalism, but they're basically alone in that.

"Paleoconservatism, the movement that explains Donald Trump, explained", Dylan Matthews, Vox (RSP entry)

After being fired, Spencer moved on to a new job as the sole editor of Taki’s Magazine, the online vanity publication of Taki Theodoracopulos, the scion of a Greek shipping magnate who was notorious for his racist remarks.

In Spencer’s telling, he steadily evolved Taki’s into a magazine aimed at white nationalists. By 2009 he’d published essays by Jared Taylor and was regularly using the term “alternative right” in its pages to describe his youthful brand of anti-war, anti-immigration, pro-white conservatism.

"Meet the White Nationalist Trying To Ride The Trump Train to Lasting Power", Mother Jones (RSP entry)

Unfortunately, Taki morphed from a harmless snob into a nasty purveyor of alt-right venom. His Taki’s Magazine is regarded as the leading alt-right outlet after Breitbart News (RSP entry). Quite recently he praised the ultra-hard-right party Golden Dawn as mostly “good old-fashioned patriotic Greeks”.

"How Alexander Chancellor’s magazine became the home of the British alt-right", Harry Eyres, New Statesman

Peter “Taki” Theodoracopulos
The proto–Gavin McInnes.

An elderly Greek playboy who named one of his dogs “Benito,” once spent three months in jail for cocaine possession, and runs the leading publication for hepcat paleoconservatives and cosmopolitan racists: Takimag, which prides itself on telling hard truths about the superiority of whites without being “boring” about it.

"Beyond Alt: Understanding the New Far Right", New York (RSP entry)

— Newslinger talk 09:09, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Of course, WP:ABOUTSELF allows us to use questionable sources, including this site, as a primary source equivalent for uncontroversial self-descriptions in the rare case that the claims are due and covered by reliable sources. Outside of WP:ABOUTSELF, there is little to no reason to use Taki's Magazine. — Newslinger talk 20:42, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • We should not be using this. I am loathe to option-4 this without clear indication of fabrication - however it is fairly obvious we should not be using a far-right publication - mostly UNDUE for opinion, and lacking a reputation for fact checking.Icewhiz (talk) 09:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad RfC. The claim is it was "isted as a source a number of times recently" but not a shred of a hint of where or how. No evidence that there is a dispute requiring an RfC. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Not claiming anything, I'm asking about the general reliability of a source. Bacondrum (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
You did indeed claim to have seen it used, or you wouldn't have been considering this post. But here on Wikipedia, we have no such thing known as "general reliability" of sources: sources are evaluated based on their ability to support various types of claims. A research study on the efficacy of aspirin is not "generally reliable" for the miracles of Jesus; the Gospel of Luke is not "generally reliable" for the efficacy of aspirin to treat headaches (despite Luke being a physician.) So this gives rise to the perennial objection to these generalized and context-free RFCs about "general reliability" of sources - yes, some sources like the Daily Mail are "generally unreliable" but we can't claim the converse: we need context about what type of claims are being made, in order to correlate them with the purview of the source in question. Only then can we evaluate reliability. So I hope you will understand the necessity of you producing some context, such as where this source was cited, and for what types of facts it is being invoked. Thanks. Elizium23 (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Okay, so what if I never saw it used, what difference would it make? I want to know if other editors think it's reliable, it's called seeking consensus...What on Earth could possibly be wrong with that? Bacondrum (talk) 07:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
I can't see how it makes any difference - if the source is unreliable, then that's what it is, but here's the version of the page that I first saw it on. I removed it as it was obviously not even close to good enough. Upon reading the source I was shocked at the quality of the publication (or lack thereof), I then noticed the same crappy source used on related pages (all of which appeared to have suffered from extensive tendentious editing), so I made the request, to see what other editors thought of the thing. Bacondrum (talk) 07:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
"here on Wikipedia, we have no such thing known as "general reliability" of sources: sources are evaluated based on their ability to support various types of claims" Obviously false, as demonstrated here and here. Yes, context absolutely matters, but we do have standards for general reliability, claims to the contrary are demonstrably false. Bacondrum (talk) 07:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
I was going to respond here, but my response is better suited for the RfC below (RFC: Moratorium on "general reliability" RFCs), which focuses on this matter. — Newslinger talk 01:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
A week ago I removed cites for "Don't Trust the B---- in Apartment 23" and "2010s in fashion" and Tropicana Casino & Resort Atlantic City" and nobody complained, indicating that there is nothing controversial there requiring an RfC. The cites for "God Is Not Great" and "The New Art Gallery Walsall" are of a book review and an architecture review, i.e. opinion pieces, so this is an attempt to prevent cites of opinions not cites of facts. Read WP:NOTCENSORED. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for removing the citations. Opinions published in questionable sources (including Taki's Magazine) written by non-notable people are almost always removed as undue weight when they do not qualify for WP:ABOUTSELF. Taki's Magazine's opinions in God Is Not Great should be removed if consensus in this RfC determines that Taki's Magazine is generally unreliable, questionable, or worse. — Newslinger talk 22:32, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Terrible source that shouldn't be used for anything, except limited primary source use, e.g. the article in Takimag that got John Derbyshire fired from National Review - David Gerard (talk) 16:19, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Use only for attributed statements of opinion, with in text attribution per David Gerrard. Adoring nanny (talk) 14:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Question Is there any evidence they have A reputation for poor fact checking?Slatersteven (talk) 09:36, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
    Slatersteven, not that I have seen. It looks like the reasons that this source is being considered unreliable is due to some editors not liking the views of some of the sources contributors, it occupying a similar niche to sources widely considered unreliable, and due to being "far-right". Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:58, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Have a look at the articles, mostly opinion, much of it is overtly racist. It's clearly a highly-partisan site which ignores general principles of journalism in order to attack perceived ideological opponents and defend perceived ideological allies. If this is the standard for a reliable source then anything and everything should be considered a reliable source, including editors personal opinion, YouTube and Facebook. It was edited by out and out Nazi Richard Spencer. You'd be setting your standards very low to callthis anything but completely unreliable, IMO. Bacondrum (talk) 21:11, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
So no then apart form its POV (and no the reason we do not allow YouTube and Facebook is because they are full of out and out falsehoods, So then at worst its RS for its own opinions, and at best it in fact does not have a reputation for poor fact checking. So I have to go with Unclear or additional considerations apply.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Being "highly-partisan" is not evidence that a source has a reputation for poor checking. If you are claiming it ignores general journalistic principles then please provide evidence, otherwise it will come across as you trying to say this source is unreliable because you disagree ideologically with it. YouTube and Facebook are completely different. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Don't you have that backwards? WP:RS requires that a source have reputation for fact-checking an accuracy, not that nobody can prove they're inaccurate. If you want to defend the use of a source, you are the one who has to present proof that they have the fact-checking and accuracy WP:RS requires - eg. descriptions in other sources, or use in high-quality sources in a way that clearly reflects a trust in their content. I'm not seeing that here; if the best people can say in its defense is "you can't prove it's unreliable!", it probably doesn't pass WP:RS. I think that partially this discussion might be confused because we usually discuss sources that might otherwise pass WP:RS if it weren't for evidence they were intentionally publishing falsehoods (eg. Breitbart, the Daily Mail, etc.) - but this source is different. It doesn't pass even the baseline. A source with no reputation for factual reporting at all fails WP:RS completely, so you have to prove it has some sort of reputation before you can demand that others find evidence it's screwed up. --Aquillion (talk) 00:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I am not trying to prove anything, I just am not sure that "its biased" is a valid justification (and in fact " However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective."). That was my pointSlatersteven (talk) 08:42, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Here's the quotes again regarding Taki's as provided by Newsliinger if you need more:

Quotes about Taki's Magazine from reliable sources
Besides his podcast, Goad’s main platform is Taki’s Magazine, an extreme right-wing publication with an irreverent tone that promises its “only ideology is to be against the junk culture foisted upon us by Hollywood and the mainstream media.” Along with Goad and McInnes, it publishes authors like John Derbyshire, who was fired from the conservative National Review (RSP entry) after he wrote an article for Taki’s about advising his teenage children to “stay out of heavily black neighborhoods.” It described black people as “ferociously hostile to whites” and is now listed in the “greatest hits” section on Taki’s website.

Taki’s contributors overlap with those at the hate site VDARE, including Steve Sailer — cited four times by TRS users — whose writing is largely dedicated to opposing immigration and drawing a false link between race and intelligence.

"McInnes, Molyneux, and 4chan: Investigating pathways to the alt-right", Southern Poverty Law Center (RSP entry)

The article that got him fired wasn't actually posted at National Review but at Taki's Magazine, an outlet run by millionaire paleocon Taki Theodoracopulos that was formerly edited by outspoken white supremacist Richard B. Spencer and has run articles by Theodoracopulos in support of the Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn.

This has been the trend for paleoconservative writing in the past decade or two. It's largely turned from mainstream conservative outfits to openly racist venues like VDARE, Taki's, American Renaissance, and the Occidental Observer. Admirably, the American Conservative has held the line and resisted crossing over into open white nationalism, but they're basically alone in that.

"Paleoconservatism, the movement that explains Donald Trump, explained", Dylan Matthews, Vox (RSP entry)

After being fired, Spencer moved on to a new job as the sole editor of Taki’s Magazine, the online vanity publication of Taki Theodoracopulos, the scion of a Greek shipping magnate who was notorious for his racist remarks.

In Spencer’s telling, he steadily evolved Taki’s into a magazine aimed at white nationalists. By 2009 he’d published essays by Jared Taylor and was regularly using the term “alternative right” in its pages to describe his youthful brand of anti-war, anti-immigration, pro-white conservatism.

"Meet the White Nationalist Trying To Ride The Trump Train to Lasting Power", Mother Jones (RSP entry)

Unfortunately, Taki morphed from a harmless snob into a nasty purveyor of alt-right venom. His Taki’s Magazine is regarded as the leading alt-right outlet after Breitbart News (RSP entry). Quite recently he praised the ultra-hard-right party Golden Dawn as mostly “good old-fashioned patriotic Greeks”.

"How Alexander Chancellor’s magazine became the home of the British alt-right", Harry Eyres, New Statesman

Peter “Taki” Theodoracopulos
The proto–Gavin McInnes.

An elderly Greek playboy who named one of his dogs “Benito,” once spent three months in jail for cocaine possession, and runs the leading publication for hepcat paleoconservatives and cosmopolitan racists: Takimag, which prides itself on telling hard truths about the superiority of whites without being “boring” about it.

"Beyond Alt: Understanding the New Far Right", New York (RSP entry)

  • Avoid. Only as limited primary source may be of some help. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad RfC as per Peter Gulutzan. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Terrible source - unreliable Autarch (talk) 20:32, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally unusable for statements of fact (3) and not generally great as an opinion source, either. There's no evidence (as far as I'm aware) that it engages in outright fabrication, but that alone is not enough to get a source past WP:RS, which requires an actual reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that this source lacks. It's clearly a WP:FRINGE outlet that posts entirely opinions; there's no evidence they do any investigation or fact-checking at all. It also lacks the reputation that would make opinions posted there automatically notable (it was difficult to find sources for its article, and the ones that came up were often critical or only mentioned it in passing), so it doesn't have much use as an opinion-piece outside of places where the author is directly the subject of the article. --Aquillion (talk) 00:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally unusable for statements of fact (3) - only because even a broken clock can be right every once in a while. It's putrid garbage, and should probably be blacklisted from Wikipedia. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:35, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad RFC - No concrete instances of this source actually being at-issue with relation to article content have been raised. This is simply a WP:FORUM discussion. FOARP (talk) 09:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
As this RfC has run for 30 days, I've submitted a request for closure at WP:RFCL § Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Taki's Magazine. — Newslinger talk 17:51, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

RFC: Moratorium on "general reliability" RFCs[edit]

  • Should we agree to halt the use of RFCs containing four options for "general (un)reliability" of a source, particularly when said RFC contains no specific instances of claims or citations?
  • While it may be useful to deprecate heavily-used and clearly-unreliable sources, the corollary is not true: Wikipedia is unable to promote a source to "reliable for any assertion about any topic whatsoever"; reliability is always assessed based on the nature of the claims being made.
  • With these parameters in mind, is it futile for us to continually open RFCs here on WP:RSN if an outcome of "generally reliable for everything" is counter-productive and misleading?
    • Sub-question: should such RFCs be permitted as long as they include at least one concrete example of an assertion of fact, such as one which is currently in dispute on an article's talk page?

Elizium23 (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Survey (moratorium)[edit]

  • @Elizium23: Could you provide a couple of examples of the types of RfCs you think should be halted? 01:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkimaria (talkcontribs)
    Sure: WP:RSN#RfC: Quadrant Magazine, WP:RSN#RfC: Daily Graphic and, WP:RSN#RfC: The Herald (Glasgow). I didn't even have to visit our archives for them. I am not sure where this template originated, but it has rapidly become the de facto method for opening discussions here on RSN, and I do not like it, no sir, not one bit. Elizium23 (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  •  Comment: This RfC is related to the RfC at WT:RSN § RfC: Header text, which affects the header text of this noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 01:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose halting RfCs. By generally reliable, we're referring to sources that have a strong reputation for accuracy, fact-checking, and error-correction. They usually have a reputable editorial team, and tend to be endorsed or used by other reliable sources for factual information. Context always matters, and the consensus shown in some discussions on this noticeboard restrict the scope of what a source is generally reliable for (e.g. The Verge RfC).

    Note that the word generally means "usually" in this context, not "always". The general classification of a source is only the starting point for evaluating reliability, and specific uses of a source can always be brought to this noticeboard for a more targeted review. If a source frequently publishes articles outside of its circle of competence, like in your example about science and religion, then the source should not be considered generally reliable. — Newslinger talk 01:21, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

    Then perhaps the question we should be asking is: Is there evidence that [source] have a reputation for fact-checking and editorial oversight? If a source meets these criteria, and independence from the topic, etc., then per WP:NEWSORG we may deem it to be generally reliable for statements of fact. But I do not think it is useful to whip up boiler-plate RFCs directly asking whether [source] is 'generally reliable' (and it's interesting that the qualification for statements of fact is, here on RSN, often missing from this question. Elizium23 (talk) 01:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, The 3 RfCs you have linked (Quadrant, Daily Graphic, The Herald) do include the "for factual reporting" qualifier after "Generally reliable". If this is not descriptive enough, then I agree that it would be helpful to provide more detailed definitions of each option in RfCs of this type. — Newslinger talk 01:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
    For what it's worth? Zilch. Newslinger opposed directly quoting or pointing to the RfCs, successfully. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
    Your reference and link to a discussion on edit filters have nothing to do with generally reliable sources. — Newslinger talk 03:44, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Newslinger: If "generally reliable" is supposed to mean "usually" it should be worded differently, because "generally" sounds like it means in the broadest sense. "In general" is not equivalent to saying "in the cases where this source is applicable as a potential RS". If Scientific American is "generally reliable" then it would be reliable for politics too. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
    Thanks for bringing this up. I've started a discussion at WT:RSP § "Generally" in search of a less ambiguous word than generally. — Newslinger talk 23:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
    As a result of the above discussion, "Generally reliable" has been changed to "Generally reliable in its areas of expertise" in WP:RSP § Legend. — Newslinger talk 14:49, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
    I am neutral on the restriction ("include at least one concrete example of an assertion of fact") suggested in the sub-question. While we should encourage editors to provide examples of how a source is being used, a question on the general reliability of a source shouldn't be unduly focused on one specific use of that source. — Newslinger talk 01:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose halting RfCs. What's wrong with seeking a consensus as to the reliability of a source? I thought we were aiming to have high quality reliable sources? If an outlet is unreliable, it is unreliable WP:SPADE. I personally think it's a very useful means to ensure quality citations and avoid myriad edit wars and content disputes before they happen. Bacondrum (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Isn't the whole purpose of this noticeboard to ask questions regarding reliable sources? Bacondrum (talk) 07:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Shouldn't this discussion be held somewhere else? This is the reliable source noticeboard, isn't it? Perhaps the talk page would be more appropriate? Bacondrum (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose halting RfCs. It's appropriate to have one big discussion about a source's reputation for accuracy, fact-checking, and error-correction since this doesn't usually change from article to article. This doesn't prevent us from discussing its appropriateness in a specific instance where things like attributed quotes or scientific/medical claims come into play. –dlthewave 12:00, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, though there are a tad too many of these lately. Generally a RfC here on the general use should be preceded by a discussion on a particular use (here), and also demonstrating that we have a general problem (e.g. We use source X in 100 articles, despite source X being described as Y....). Lately - there have been some RfCs here that jumped the gun on proper pre-RfC discussions. However, we definitely shouldn't have a moratorium on RfCs of these type generally - as discussions sources is exactly what this board is for. Icewhiz (talk) 13:15, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Be more careful Don't reach straight for the RfC unless other options have proved fruitless. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. RfCs should only be used in order to cleanly remove/"deprecate" currently in-use sources. For sources where no formal action is envisaged, start with a standard discussion. feminist (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support as there ahave been far too many in a short period so that the discussion is often truncated, undetailed, lacking participation and depth of investigation, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 16:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. The four-way question is deceptive and not consistent with WP:RS. It misleads by claiming to be a "deprecation" so people who know this dictionary definition will think it's about "disapproval" but in fact the intent (not necessarily implemented) is that an edit filter will result in a message that references are generally prohibited. It misleads by claiming to be "as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail" but in fact the Daily Mail closers didn't say "deprecating", said the prohibition is of use as a reference, and said opinion pieces are okay. It misleads by causing links to essay-status pages as if they have some sort of authority, when the real authority is WP:RS policy (the one that says to always take context into account). The Herald (Glasgow) RfC is an example of misuse -- an editor included the question about treating like The Daily Mail, not with evidence that serious people might think that but it's in the four-way question. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Excuse me, sir, but "misuse"? I felt The Herald belongs on WP:RSP. What is the process if not posting here and getting consensus? It was my first time at this noticeboard. I saw the "four option" query being used here as if it was a template or standard format, so I followed suit. Other contributors even thanked me for the submission or said they thought The Herald was already on the list of perennial sources. And since this is policy currently being voted on, I don't think I was wrong, so I thank you not to characterize my submission as misuse or abuse of the noticeboard. --SVTCobra 20:46, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
SVTCobra Indeed, all this talk of misuse and dishonesty is way out of line, what happened to the assumption of good faith? I too saw that NEWSLINGER had used that format and I thought it was a clear and efficiant way to get feedback, I never asked for anything to be depreciated. Isn't this notice board precisely for asking about the reliability of sources? I've seen very little reasoning used here, just claims that too many people are asking questions or that those who ask are being dishonest. Should probably get rid of this noticeboard then, why have it if you aren't allowed to ask too much or your going to be accused of dishonesty. Bacondrum (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
Neither of the Daily Mail (RSP entry) RfCs (2017 nor 2019) concluded that "opinion pieces are okay". See Wikipedia:Citing sources for what reference means.

Even deprecated sources qualify for the WP:ABOUTSELF exception, which allows their use for uncontroversial self-descriptions in the rare case that they are WP:DUE and covered by reliable sources. The reliable sources guideline is being honored in all of these RfCs, because context matters in each of the four options. (The only exception is the CoinDesk RfC, and I opposed the proposal in that RfC's statement because this criterion was not met.) WP:DEPS defers to WP:RS and explicitly states, "reliability always depends on the specific content being cited, and all sources are reliable in at least some circumstances and unreliable in at least some others". If there is any confusion about what deprecation means, a link to WP:DEPS will clarify.

When an editor asks about a low-quality source, we should be able to say that it is questionable, and that it generally shouldn't be used on Wikipedia. Repeatedly debating the inclusion of poor sources that have earned abysmal reputations for repeatedly publishing false or fabricated information, conspiracy theories, or pseudoscience is a waste of the community's time. RfCs of this type allow us to make decisive evaluations resulting in consensus that endures until there is evidence that the source's reputation has changed. Consensus is a policy. — Newslinger talk 21:49, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I said "misuse" correctly but should have emphasized it was innocent misuse, which is obvious. I said "and [Daily Mail RfC closers] said opinion pieces are okay" because despite Newslinger's irrelevancies it is a fact, see the NPOVN archive of a May 2017 discussion and look for the words "Attributed opinions of the author were not considered in the RFC, and a reasonable exception from the ban appears correct here." Nobody said anything against "we should be able to say that it is questionable" because that's not the topic. Consensus is not a policy that allows overriding WP:RS because WP:CONLEVEL. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 65 § Daily Mail, the full statement from Tazerdadog (one of the 2017 Daily Mail RfC closers) was:

Attributed opinions of people other than the author were considered in the RFC and were included in the ban (IAR notwithstanding). Attributed opinions of the author were not considered in the RFC, and a reasonable exception from the ban appears correct here.)

The attributed opinions of any article's author are covered under WP:ABOUTSELF, which applies to all questionable (and deprecated) sources, although due weight should also be considered. If you don't like the results of the two Daily Mail RfCs, you can try to convince the community that "its use as a reference" should not be "generally prohibited". Overturning the current consensus would require a third RfC on the Daily Mail, which is not advisable right now because it's highly unlikely to succeed.

Nobody is suggesting that WP:RS should be overridden; the type of RfC being discussed here uses WP:V and WP:RS to identify questionable sources for what they are: "generally unreliable". — Newslinger talk 08:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:ABOUTSELF is "about self", an honest title that has nothing whatever to do with Newslinger's assertion. But that doesn't matter since now there's no dispute that the closers said attributed opinions are okay, which is one of the reasons the question is misleading. I said nothing in this thread about overturning WP:DAILYMAIL, perhaps Newslinger mixes that up with my remarks that one shouldn't say something is like The Daily Mail and its RfC when it's not. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Please re-read WP:ABOUTSELF. Using the example from the NPOVN discussion, the article that Katie Hopkins published in the Daily Mail qualifies under WP:ABOUTSELF as an uncontroversial representation of what Hopkins's own opinions are. However, this is only due in the article on Katie Hopkins (and if it were more prominent, it would be due in the Daily Mail article). It is not due anywhere else. Claiming that "the closers said attributed opinions are okay" is extremely misleading, since it conflates WP:RSOPINION (which the Daily Mail does not qualify for, because it's not considered a reliable source) with WP:ABOUTSELF (which is a restrictive exemption granted to all questionable sources and self-published sources). — Newslinger talk 20:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The closer remarks that I pointed to made no mention of WP:ABOUTSELF, Newslinger while claiming to quote "the full statement from Tazerdadog" quoted only one full statement, another was "However, the DM does not have a reputation for altering the words of the author of the piece, so this can be taken as one of the exceptions we tried to write into the close.", the point at issue wasn't secretly WP:ABOUTSELF unless one believes that when Katie Hopkins wrote "Britain is faced with some hard questions ..." the word Britain was a synonym for Katie Hopkins. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:28, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
That is covered under WP:ABOUTSELF, because the claim is that Hopkins wrote the statement in the Daily Mail, not that the statement is true. It is used in the Katie Hopkins article as a primary source equivalent, but is not due anywhere else. Since WP:ABOUTSELF covers this situation entirely, no additional exceptions were made for the Daily Mail beyond what is normally allotted for questionable sources. The 2017 Daily Mail RfC does not support the use of the Daily Mail for all "opinion pieces", but the ones eligible for WP:ABOUTSELF "were not considered in the RFC". — Newslinger talk 00:33, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I asked a closer, Primefac. The reply is here. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying with Primefac. The Katie Hopkins case was not the ideal example, since it falls under WP:ABOUTSELF in the Katie Hopkins article. I will defer to Primefac's explanation for attributed opinions of Daily Mail authors in articles other than the article of the author, although due weight still applies. — Newslinger talk 21:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
If the term deprecation is an issue, anyone can submit a requested move from Wikipedia:Deprecated sources to Wikipedia:Highly questionable sources or some other name. The name makes no difference to me. However, I get the impression that you're not objecting to the name, but to the adoption of edit filters and other mechanisms that discourage the use of highly questionable sources. There is consensus that RfCs are the preferred process for determining whether these mechanisms should be implemented. You can verify this through the 18 successful RfCs that deprecated 17 different sources, and you can also read this paragraph from the closing statement of the 2019 Daily Mail RfC:

Finally, a number of editors argued that other publications were similarly, or more, unreliable than the Daily Mail. We note that the unreliability of a different source is a reason to remove that source, and is irrelevant here; regardless, these other publications are outside the scope of this RfC, and if there are lingering concerns about other tabloids or tabloids in general, a separate RfC is necessary to assess current consensus about them.

— Newslinger talk 08:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
There was absolutely zero "lingering concern" that something like The Herald (Glasgow) is a tabloid meriting removal, but there is concern here about the misuse of a misleading 4-way question that was never suggested in WP:DAILYMAIL closing remarks. As for "identifying questionable sources" -- great idea, because it's normal behaviour following instructions at the top of this WP:RSN page, i.e. it's not an RfC with four fixed questions. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
As of right now, nobody in the RfC for The Herald has claimed that it is a "tabloid meriting removal". WP:RFC lists a number of accepted uses for an RfC: "Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content." The type of RfC under debate solicits input on whether a source generally meets the requirements of WP:V (a policy) and WP:RS (a guideline). Outside of the instructions in WP:RFCST, declaring whether an RfC format is or isn't "normal behaviour" for other editors is excessively bureaucratic, and Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. — Newslinger talk 20:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
You brought up "lingering concerns about tabloids", I observed there was no lingering concern, so the excuse that you brought up doesn't hold. You brought up how good identifying questionable sources was, I said that's normal and in keeping with WP:RSN, I don't think I need to excuse that. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:28, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
These 18 RfCs, some of which you participated in, show ample "lingering concerns" regarding a wide variety of sources, including tabloids. One of the goals of these RfCs are to identify low-quality sources like InfoWars (RfC), Breitbart News (RfC) (which you defended), and Occupy Democrats (RfC) as sources that should be discouraged from use. — Newslinger talk 00:27, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I assume the closer of this RfC will be capable of noticing that Newslinger changed the subject instead of addressing the point. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
You're ignoring the 18 RfCs that showed consensus for deprecating the source (including two tabloids, The Sun (RfC) and the National Enquirer (RfC)) and cherry-picking one RfC that doesn't. I've addressed your point. — Newslinger talk 21:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose as per dlthewave. François Robere (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose - David Gerard (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose also per Dlthewave. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 21:16, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - those kind of RfCs are appropriate for sketchy sources which are widely used. Like Daily Mail or Fox News kind of stuff. They are not appropriate for more narrow topics or sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:45, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Newslinger and others, with the added notes that 1) this should probably take place on the talk page for this board and 2) there's already a discussion under way there on an overlapping topic. signed, Rosguill talk 22:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Let's have a moratorium on RfCs about RfCs. Softlavender (talk) 03:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Hahaha! My thoughts exactly, thanks for the chuckle.
  • Oppose but I agree with Icewhiz about the need to first establish that a source has specific reliability issues before going for a general RfC. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:24, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per my comment above: These RFCs are useful to get a very rough barometer for how a source is seen by the community and how specific questions about it are likely to be evaluated. Unless an RFC is worded as an outright ban (which is very rare, and generally invoked as a last resort), I don't think any outcome is taken to mean "always reliable, can never be questioned" or "always unreliable, remove on sight"; rather, they provide editors with a quick reference point so they know where they're starting from and the mood of the room if they want to argue for or against using a particular source in a particular context. Additionally, while it's accurate to say that we should judge each case individually, the reality is that we can't reliably get enough people to weigh in on each of them to ensure consistent assessment of sources; going entirely case-by-case with no broader RFCs would result in inconsistent and sometimes random responses based on who happened to weigh in. In particular, one of the requirements of WP:RS is that a source have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", often the most difficult thing to assess - and one that usually doesn't vary much from use to use (or, if it does, it does so in a consistent expected way that can be noted during the RFC.) These RFCs can't predict or account for all possible uses of a source, but they're absolutely useful in terms of giving us a consistent, reasonably well-grounded definition of "does this source, on the whole, have the baseline reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that WP:RS requires?" --Aquillion (talk) 08:32, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The problem is that a source may have a “baseline reputation for fact checking and accuracy” in one area, and not have one in another area. This was pointed out in the several Daily Mail RFCs... the DM is accurate when reporting on sports... not when reporting on politics and celebrities. This is why I am not a fan of these RFCs. They don’t examine context. Blueboar (talk) 11:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
So, several things. First, and most importantly, the Daily Mail RFC was one of those "last resort" things I mentioned - it's different from most of the RFCs we use here. Because a few people kept trying to use the Daily Mail as if it were a top-tier New York Times-quality source despite a very clear informal consensus that it was generally not reliable (and even though it kept coming back to WP:RSN and getting basically laughed off the page), we took the unusual step of formalizing that consensus into a general banned-by-default RFC. Those are and should be extremely rare, reserved only for when people keep insisting on trying to use a source in clearly unworkable ways over and over (ie. when a source both rarely passes WP:RS and is extremely popular for controversial topics where it clearly fails WP:RS.) It wasn't a gauge-the-general-room-temperature-for-the-Daily-Mail RFC, it was a we're-at-wits-end-and-need-this-to-stop RFC. Those are a separate thing, but I think they're justifiable occasionally; even in sports, I don't feel there much we would want in Wikipedia uniquely sourceable to the Daily Mail that can't be found elsewhere. But for the more common sorts of "what does the community think of X?" RFCs, things like this can be noted in the RFC, if it's true. We're not limited to binary yes / no options - the purpose of those RFCs is to collect a general measure of the community's consensus on a source in one place; if you look at the RFCs above, they're generally cautiously worded and lead to fairly cautiously worded entries in WP:RSP to provide guidance to editors, not strict bans or the like. Also, you are more likely to have someone contribute who knows those details in a large month-long RFC with a lot of people contributing than to have it come up in a tiny brief discussion with only a few people - what makes you think that if you come here saying "I want to use the Daily Mail as a source for Joe Sportsman", you'll get anything but "hahaha the Daily Mail? No." from the vast majority of responses? In this sense the RFCs are useful because they're more likely to turn up someone who says "wait, source X is actually usable in situation Y!", which (if they convince people in the RFC) can then be noted down on WP:RSP as something that came up and will then be available to editors who wouldn't otherwise have known it (and may not have discovered it, if they just poked WP:RSN and got a response from a handful of random people for their exact issue, which seems to be what the support voters here want us to go back to.) --Aquillion (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is what is says on the box: an RfC about general reliability. ANY website is reliable for the material it says about itself, but we try not to use / should be very careful with the use of those (primary) sources in the first place. It is a good thing that we establish as a community that a certain source is generally reliable, sometimes/often reliable or generally unreliable. The ones that the community decides that they are generally unreliable should be removed for non-primary sources, and the use as primary source should be scrutinized and may need removal. The use of such unreliable sources should be strongly discouraged and sometimes plainly be made 'impossible' (i.e. only be possible after a consensus discussion). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Alternate proposal - define and restrict General Reliability RFCs to cases where they actually make sense:
    • A General Reliability RFC is useful for adding a source to the list of perennial sources.
    • A General Reliability RFC is only appropriate if there have been at least 3 previous RSN discussions on the same source, each linked in the General RFC. This establishes that there is a genuine purpose for a generalized discussion, and it ensures at least previous three disputed cases for examination as well as that previous ground work of research and analysis. A general RFC on a source no one ever heard of, which no one will ever bring up again, and with no substantial evidentiary basis, is a bad use of other people's time.
    • The instructions and documentation should prominently state that that the outcome of a General Reliability RFC does not resolve any open dispute about any particular usage at any particular article. RSN already lays out separate instructions and requirements for that. Alsee (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • At least in as much as it applies, I have long said that we should not be having RfCs or even dedicated threads purely for the purpose of listing a source (one way or the other) on WP:RSPS. See also Goodhart's law. GMGtalk 14:09, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support strongly. If someone cares about looking into a sources reliability and answering questions about it they can go here. RfCs for sources which have not been brought here before just bludgeon the process and waste everybody involved's times. Sources should only be brought to RfC if there was no consensus or the consensus was not wide enough. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support While some publications are more reliable than others, it's not as if some sources are gospel truth while others are heretical. Above, we are spending time on the American Conservative which publishes conservative opinion. Policy is however clear. Opinion pieces are rarely reliable unless written by experts. What point is there in having an argument about what people think about these opinions? TFD (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support The whole idea of a broad brush for a source is badly flawed. First every source varies in reliability. Second, reliability varies with respect to the text which supports it. Britney Spear's sister's book might be reliable as a cite for a "Britney's favorite color is.." statement, but not for a statement on particle physics. North8000 (talk) 17:35, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Honestly all the RFCs without having discussion first is disruptive and not very helpful in general. A RFC should be a last resort and not a first try. It also ignores the general ideas of what we consider a RS. PackMecEng (talk) 22:12, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per PackMecEng. The number of frivolous RfCs on this noticeboard discourages widespread participation, which undermines the possibility of them being authoritative answers, and encourages users to start an RfC every time they have a question about a source, or a gripe with one. Further, the wording of "generally reliable" which I take to mean "in general" conflicts with the primary meanings of "general" and may be misleading. Only an encyclopedia, which is a tertiary source anyway, would be "generally reliable". The RfCs are stamping a "general" seal of approval on sources that may have only narrow applicability. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - These "Is X a terrible source which should be banned from Wiki" RFCs have been like a rash on this page since the DM ban, which was the original instance of banning something just because the power existed to do it. There is no reason to classify every single potential source here, and by doing so we store up potential problems for the future (bad decisions made without any context, which when applied to an actual case are clearly wrong in the context of that case). Just apply WP:NEWSORG. FOARP (talk) 09:08, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
PS - I also think a good argument can be made that these general discussions of source-reliability are against WP:FORUM. Unless there is a concrete issue related to article content being discussed, then ultimately these are just forum-type discussions about media in general. FOARP (talk) 09:31, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
These discussions don't violate WP:NOTFORUM, since they affect article content. They also affect how editor conduct is evaluated in areas subject to discretionary sanctions. — Newslinger talk 01:58, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Only in the sense that a contextless discussion on what countries, politicians, or political parties are "bad" might do - and I'd hope that we would be able to identify that as as a WP:FORUM discussion. FOARP (talk) 07:29, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The context is all of the articles the source is cited in, which can be found through an insource query or Special:LinkSearch. And this entire noticeboard focuses on evaluating whether sources have adequate reputations for fact-checking and accuracy. We're not determining whether various entities are "bad", but whether sources meet Wikipedia's standards. If these discussions were just forum discussions that didn't impact article content, there would be no incentive for you to post "Bad RfC" in all of the other RfCs on this page. — Newslinger talk 08:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes, folks, stating that something is a Bad RFC means it must be a good RFC. My incentive cannot possibly be to point out that they are bad RFCs - I must be doing it because they are good ones!
Similarly, discursive, context-free discussions about sources that frequently reference the imagined political bias of the source and rarely cite meaningful evidence of general unreliability are not actually a determination of the source being "bad" in any sense - other than having the potential effect that they cannot be used. FOARP (talk) 12:39, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Some sources are plainly unreliable for any factual information, and we shouldn't have to make a request for each and every article in which they are used. --PluniaZ (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose if prior discussion - I don't see why a full-blown RfC is needed if there hasn't been a prior general RSN discussion on it. However, if there has, why not seek out consensus? Nosebagbear (talk) 10:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose halting RfCs: such discussions and WP:RSP heuristics (which marks many sources as "Generally reliable in its areas of expertise") are exceptionally helpful to newer users and those less experienced in determining if a source is reliable. Saying "reliability is always assessed based on the nature of the claims being made" tells a new user nothing. It's a rule for experienced users to bear in mind in edge cases, but not helpful to someone who wants to know whether they should go to The Register (yes) or Forbes (yes unless it's /sites/) or Breitbart (no) when they need a reliable source for something. Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
/sites/ is now used for staff articles too not just contributors. example. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Ooh, good to know. Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 12:58, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support as a general concept. Actually, I wonder whether we should stop declaring sources to be generally unreliable, and instead start pointing out the specific ways in which certain common sources fail the guideline. The Daily Mail, for example, is generally unreliable because it's reputation for fact-checking and accuracy is poor, not because we don't like it. Declaring sources to be generally unreliable (beyond saying things like "DM doesn't meet the WP:RS guideline's definition of a reliable source – specifically, it fails point #1 in WP:NOTGOODSOURCE") overlooks the importance of WP:RSCONTEXT and usually is more of a question about WP:DUE weight anyway. (Yes, that website/fringe news site/politician actually did say that [which means the source is "reliable" under the WP:RS definition for narrow statements like "This source said that"]. But so what? There's no need to put any of that in this article in the first place.) In several cases, I think that these "GUNREL" declarations have actually been "tiny minority" declarations, and muddling the two concepts is a bad idea for anyone who wants to be able to think clearly and logically about content policies.
    Specifically, while I think we should stop having these RFCs, I am willing to perhaps consider the occasional RFC in contentious cases that have repeatedly appeared here at RSN and where RSN has had difficulty in resolving those discussions. (RSN regulars are perfectly capable of repeating "No, you can't use that anonymous HIV denial website to support a claim that HIV doesn't exist" as many times as necessary, without anyone starting an RFC.) As a practical matter, I also think we should stop having these "banned sources" RFCs on this page (use a subpage if you need to). Any of the alternatives that sound approximately like "Stop the RFCs unless you genuinely can't get resolve your content dispute any other way" would work for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:37, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose this proposal as too rigid, but favor some minimal threshold. I would favor, as a general rule, that an editor starting a "general reliability" RfC would need to provide diffs showing (1) that the source was cited at least 5-10 times in article space (either presently, or in the recent past) and that there has been some of sort actual dispute about the reliability of the source. (I would not, as some suggest, require 3 different noticeboard discussions or anything like that—but I would require some sort of actual evidence, via reversion, talk page discussion, or noticeboard discussion, that the reliability of a source has actually been disputed.). Neutralitytalk 01:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support – sources should be evaluated in connection with a specific claim in a specific article, and not generally. Levivich 01:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is obvious utility in maintaining the list of generally unreliable sources. Obviously some people do not like the fact that some sources are generally unreliable. That is largely the point. Case by case review of Breitbart would be a titanic waste of time, and we'd need a {{still no}} template as well. Equally, a source that is a legitimate review case by case, is probably not right for deprecation. There should not be many deprecated sources but there absolutely should be deprecated sources, and managing this through RFC is the only obviously practical way of doing it. Not every new user can be expected to be familiar with our arcana, so the edit filters minimise bite, and again, we have to have some way of managing that. You could make a case for triaging, and putting those which meet the threshold for a proper debate at WP:CENT, but we have to have the RFCs. Guy (Help!) 10:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose- Although I can see the arguments for dialing back the RfCs a little, I worry that forbidding all discussion is just going to make every mendacious propaganda site decreed reliable by default while preventing anyone from doing anything about it. Reyk YO! 10:35, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose the main question. I do agree that they're mainly for unreliable sources, though, rather than setting rules for what is reliable [in general]. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Autarch (talk) 18:59, 3 August 2019


  • Just a quick count of votes to date: 19 OPPOSE and 11 SUPPORT Bacondrum (talk) 02:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose moratorium, while supporting the inclusion of several specific examples whenever raising a general question about a particular source. — JFG talk 19:54, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support the opinions of North8000 and FOARP appear to be persuasive. The use of a source should be on a case by case basis, per article. Looking back on some of these RfCs a case of IDONTLIKEIT appear to have created consensus to ensure that sources are no longer utilized, which leads to due to the reduction of available resources, some content taking on the weight of views of the remaining sources, while excluding the views of other sources thus leading to, well meaning but, non-neutral content. Thus as others have suggested CONTEXTMATTERS.--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 11:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per the many reasons already noted. Having a more structured discussion seems useful. I’ve been in a few roundabouts where the core issues are ignored and productive movement is derailed , on purpose or not, to the detriment of getting consensus.
    I also find it very useful to know if given a choice of multiple sources to use, which ones are more reliable. Presumably we should be getting sources that will last and not be just good enough for the moment. Gleeanon409 (talk) 22:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - sources are used for verifiability so it depends on what needs to be verified - see WP:V To discuss the reliability of a specific source for a particular statement, consult the reliable sources noticeboard, which seeks to apply this policy to particular cases. It is a core content policy to which we should adhere. Atsme Talk 📧 02:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
As this RfC has run for 30 days, I've submitted a request for closure at WP:RFCL § Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: Moratorium on "general reliability" RFCs. — Newslinger talk 17:58, 17 August 2019 (UTC)


Some editors have suggested restrictions on when an RfC on the general reliability of a source would be appropriate, as well as changes to the commonly used 4-option RfC format. For more coordinated discussion, please list your suggestion in a new subheading under this "Workshop" section, so other editors can comment on them individually. — Newslinger talk 21:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Emir of Wikipedia's proposal[edit]

I still oppose option 4 of the "commonly used" format. In my view an RfC on reliability is only appropriate if there has not been a discussion here which generated clear consensus, or if there has been discussion scattered around Wikipedia which needs centralising in an easily referable place. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Alsee's proposal[edit]

Alternate proposal - define and restrict General Reliability RFCs to cases where they actually make sense:

  • A General Reliability RFC is useful for adding a source to the list of perennial sources.
  • A General Reliability RFC is only appropriate if there have been at least 3 previous RSN discussions on the same source, each linked in the General RFC. This establishes that there is a genuine purpose for a generalized discussion, and it ensures at least previous three disputed cases for examination as well as that previous ground work of research and analysis. A general RFC on a source no one ever heard of, which no one will ever bring up again, and with no substantial evidentiary basis, is a bad use of other people's time.
  • The instructions and documentation should prominently state that that the outcome of a General Reliability RFC does not resolve any open dispute about any particular usage at any particular article. RSN already lays out separate instructions and requirements for that.

Alsee (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Support some combination of this with GMG's proposal below being added to instructions at top of this noticeboard. —DIYeditor (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. Alsee's proposal ensures that general reliability RfCs are decided on at least four rounds of examination (three previous discussions plus the RfC itself), and directs attention to sources that need the most input from editors. It delineates the difference between the general case and specific cases, and does not place undue weight on any single use of a source. RfCs are most useful for reducing the volume of discussions on sources that are discussed too often. This proposal is likely to make the greatest reduction on editor workload by ensuring that there are not too many RfCs nor too many discussions on this noticeboard. (A requirement of 4–5 discussions instead of 3 also sounds reasonable to me.) — Newslinger talk 00:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, too WP:CREEP-y. An essay to this effect might make sense, but these discussions are useful to gauge the general temperature of the community's views on a particular source, which helps people decide whether to open specific discussions and how to word them if they do (eg. letting people know the starting point and whether they need to argue a particular usage is an exception to the general community opinion on a source in one way or another.) More specific RSN discussions are useful but not sufficient for our purposes on their own, since they usually have very little participation and can therefore produce extremely swingy results between similar sources based on who happens to weigh in. --Aquillion (talk) 18:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, maybe best left for an essay (or some mildly worded friendly advice at the top of this page). I think that formal RfCs exacerbate the problem of these swingy results because if there are 10 active RfCs on here all the time, people watching for RfCs may just start to ignore them. So while it being an RfC may give the impression of being authoritative or representing general consensus, the flood of them may make that not true. Or is that off base? —DIYeditor (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. François Robere (talk) 18:04, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support if original proposal not passed - This is a good alternative since it would still address the problem of people simply treating this page as a forum for discussing which sources are, in their view, "bad" in some contextless sense. FOARP (talk) 07:24, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Supt.-2nd Choice if "GreenMeansGo's proposal" below does not pass, see my reasoning there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:45, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The list of perennial sources should have its own inclusion criteria based on past RfCs. Assuming that were based on multiple past discussions, it's unclear what this proposal would allow for in the case of general reliability RfCs. I generally support the idea that we shouldn't jump to one of those RfCs without previous discussions of a source, but I'm reluctant to suggest codifying that rule or, as I've already implied, the necessary involvement of RSP, which should remain a meta resource rather than play a role in the consensus process. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:32, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

GreenMeansGo's proposal[edit]

You shouldn't open threads about a source unless there is a specific content dispute. You shouldn't open a thread about the universal reliability of a source unless there is a preponderance of threads dealing with specific content disputes where they have decided the source is unreliable. GMGtalk 23:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

^^^^ !!!! Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes - though I'd loosen this somewhat. I think it is OK to discuss a widely used source prior to article level discussions (however that shouldn't be a RfC - but a request for input - and should have specific examples - e.g. source W is used for X, Y, and Z. I have concerns because of A, B, C. In any case not universal). A blanket deprecation RfC should only be opened if there is an indication of a problem on Wikipedia (e.g. Daily Mail - was widely used). Icewhiz (talk) 05:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support --GRuban (talk) 19:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support – This should become policy. Levivich 02:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support CThomas3 (talk) 03:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support adding to instructions at top of noticeboard. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose, too WP:CREEP-y. Perhaps as a general suggestion, but not as a rule - as discussed above, it is useful for editors to gauge the general "temperature" of opinion on a particular source, and I don't think we should have any hard restrictions on them doing so. --Aquillion (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Full disclosure, I didn't add the header above and keep getting surprised when I see this section pop up on my watchlist. But I'm not sure I at all understand the reference to CRUFT, which you seem to have made twice now. GMGtalk 19:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Aquillion. And honestly there are sources out there that people try to use that are beyond the pale in basically any circumstance. So while no source is always reliable, being able to find out if a source is always unreliable is useful. Simonm223 (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
    • A more specific issue, which came up for the Newsweek RFC below, is that the precise wording of this suggestion would bar people from making general RFCs when a source is frequently discussed and frequently found reliable. (It would also bar RFCs when a source is frequently discussed with no consensus, which is utterly absurd, since those are the situation that most desperately requires a broader high-participation RFC that might reach some sort of consensus.) Having a broad RFC to settle perennial discussions of all sorts is general policy. I'm not sure we even can bar future RFCs of that nature per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:CCC. The whole idea of "let's have an RFC to set the rules under which people can make future RFCs" seems both WP:CREEP-y and sketchy. --Aquillion (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
      • 100% on the issue of perennial discussion and general policy. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
      • That makes sense, we cannot change the rules for RfCs without an RfC advertised as doing such. I was thinking more along the lines of "advice" at the top of this page. Something to the effect that starting a formal RfC for every question about a source may overload the RfC process and limit participation. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
    • The problem is... no source is ever “always unreliable”... if nothing else, every source will be reliable for citing a quote from that source (and is, in fact, the MOST reliable source for that purpose). Blueboar (talk) 19:26, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with the exception for quotes and opinion statements that is often trotted out. If a quote hasn't been repeated by reliable sources, it fails W:WEIGHT; if it has, why not just cite the reliable source? –dlthewave 17:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
If we're at a point where we're discussing whether a source is "always unreliable" or just "mostly unreliable", then we shouldn't use that source. François Robere (talk) 19:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
  • This is incorrect on two points. First, there are, in fact, "always unusable" sources, ones that can never be cited in any context; in particular, WP:USERGENERATED sources can never be cited, fullstop - no context exists under which it is ever appropriate to cite one. But more generally, most of these RFCs and discussions are asking about whether a source can be used for anything except the opinion of its author. There are a huge number of sources that are clearly not usable outside that extremely specific context. Context matters for some aspects of WP:RS, but not all of them - there are ways to fall RS severely enough to render a source totally unusable in any situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose for the following reasons:
  1. There's value in discussing the general reliability of a source - be it a writer, a publisher, or a specific creation - which may or may not have a reputation for reliability among experts. Do musicologists often cite Peter Schickele? No (though not for lack of talent), and the current rules allow me to reflect that with an RfC if the question arises.
  2. The proposal assumes general RfCs are wasteful in terms of editors' time and effort, but the fact of the matter is that one general RfC is much less wasteful than a whole bunch of specific ones. If one is only allowed to bring fourth a general RfC after a "preponderance" of specific threads have been opened, then how much time would we have we wasted on those threads? And this is assuming good faith.
    1. BTW, how much is "a preponderance"? Is five a preponderance? Ten? Do you really want an editor to be "legally" able to open five threads on a bogus source in five different articles before someone is able to bring them here?
  3. The purpose of RfCs is to resolve disputes, but by requiring that previous threads "have decided the source is unreliable" we'd be preventing disputes from ever reaching the RfC stage. After all, what's the point of an RfC if we already have a consensus? Just ban RfCs altogether.
Bottom line: if you really believe there's a problem with too many general RfCs being brought in, then there's a much better proposal on the table by Alsee. François Robere (talk) 19:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support It's the closest thing that approaches the purposes of WP:V judging in context, and it would tend to avoid the WP:NOTAFORUM stuff these open ended queries get. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Seems to not only be about RFCs; too bureaucratic for a noticeboard. —PaleoNeonate – 01:05, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support The note at the top of this noticeboard clearly says that discussions should be about whether sources are reliable for specific purposes. Also, WP:V and other sourcing policies clearly state that reliability can only be judged in context. I don't think these general RFC should be completely banned, but people are opening them on sources that have never been discussed on the noticeboard, or for sources that are essentially never used in articles anyways. That just clutters up the noticeboard with useless junk. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Prefer Alsee's proposal, which applies the same treatment to the entire reliability spectrum. — Newslinger talk 01:49, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose "preponderance" - some level of prior consideration might be worthwhile, but the phrasing indicates that a more significant number is needed, perhaps unnecessarily restrictive Nosebagbear (talk)
  • Mixed (mostly support Icewhiz's modification): I agree that opening an RFC in the absence of any indication that anyone has ever attempted to use a source is kind of waste of time, but asking editors to open multiple WP:RSN discussions about an obviously unreliable source before finally having an RFC would be an even bigger waste of time. If I have a dispute over a source that reaches a point where it's necessary to open a noticeboard discussion, then why not just go ahead and deprecate to save everyone the trouble of revisiting a clearly terrible source in the future? Specific content disputes should be the starting point, but maybe we should make allowances for editors (emphasis on the plural) to agree to broaden a discussion if a particular source looks like it warrants it.Nblund talk
  • Support - absolutely! It's in our PAGs. Atsme Talk 📧 02:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Aquillion's proposal[edit]

I suggest discouraging any repetitive objections to such general-purpose discussions and RFCs that aren't clearly backed up by whatever outcome we reach here. If there's no consensus to remove them, or if we've agreed to allow them under certain circumstances, then posting near-identical comments to several of them at once objecting to them in identical terms, like this is WP:POINTy. (Not to call that one set of edits out - it's the most recent example, but others have done similar things in the past.) The reality is that such discussions have been accepted practice for a long time, and absent an actual RFC against them or some other indication that that practice has changed, trying to shout them down by responding to all of them at once with identical objections isn't constructive. The appropriate way to halt a common practice you find objectionable is to first try and establish a centralized consensus against it, not to try and force through an objection that lacks such clear consensus through disruptively repeating your interpretation as fact even when after it's failed to reach consensus. Posting identical "bad RFC!" messages on a whole bunch of discussions at once isn't the way to move forwards, especially if there isn't really a clear consensus backing that objection up. Merely having a strong opposition to particular sorts of discussions, or strongly believing that they're against some policy, isn't sufficient justification for disrupting them like that if there's no clear consensus backing you up. Obviously this would just be a general guideline - people could still object to individual ones they feel are particularly unhelpful, but mass-copy-pasting an otherwise off-topic objection to every single RFC of a particular type that you think we shouldn't be having ought to require at least some consensus to back you up. --Aquillion (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. The whole point of this centralized discussion is to settle this in a clean fashion so it doesn't constantly spill out and disrupt other discussions with meta-arguments. --Aquillion (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. The constant obstruction caused by these objections, written into multiple unrelated discussions without consideration of the sources being discussed, is indeed disruptive. The results of this RfC should settle this matter definitively. — Newslinger talk 01:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad question. You refer to use of the words "bad RfC" (in this case by FOARP but I have done it more often). You are alleging that saying that is "disruptive" and that someone has tried to "shout down" others. These are conduct accusations. Replying "oppose" to a conduct accusation is (I believe) an error, since it implies acceptance that the proposal is legitimate in this context. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 01:54, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad Proposal If the outcome of this RfC is that we shouldn't have those types of RfCs, then that objection is the correct objection to make. It doesn't matter if you're objecting to 1 bad RfC or 10 - they would all be bad RfCs. If the outcome of that RfC is that we should have those types of RfCs, then that objection shouldn't be made even once. Galestar (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Right, but what happens if (as seems extremely likely at this point) this RFC is closed with no consensus? Those discussions keep happening, and the same few people keep posting the same few identical objections on all of them? I don't think that that's a reasonable way to proceed. --Aquillion (talk) 04:22, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Your proposal starts with Regardless of the outcome of this RFC. This proposal is only even possible if 1 of the 3 outcomes is arrived at... Galestar (talk) 04:24, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
And ends with ...that aren't clearly backed up by whatever outcome we reach here. Most of the proposals above would allow them under certain circumstances, so I worded it broadly in the sense of ie. obviously comments reminding people of a clear outcome here would be fine. (And, obviously, you are incorrect about 1 of the 3; there's also the situation where none of the options reach a clear consensus.) Nonetheless, I'll remove the first bit to avoid confusion. --Aquillion (talk) 04:29, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Okay I guess I didn't quite understand some of the nuance at first. I still think that this proposal should only be considered once its decided what kind of objections are allowed/disallowed/undecided. Maybe I just think too linearly and don't want to jump ahead to the part where we decide how many objections at a time are okay when we haven't yet decided (or failed-to-decide?) which objections are okay. Galestar (talk) 04:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Bad proposal - WP:NOTAFORUM is a pretty basic rule on Wikipedia, and if people on this page want to repeatedly flout it by engaging in context-free, discursive "Which media sources do you feel are bad?" style discussions, then you betcha I'm going to point that out. It also clearly states what should and should not be RFC'd on this page right at the top, pointing out that an RFC flouts this can be no more wrong than pointing out that an AFD nomination fails WP:BEFORE, or that an RFC is wrongly factored (both of which are very common). FOARP (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Support as per proposer. Bacondrum (talk) 23:00, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Comment I am uncomfortable with the fact that these RfCs appear to be replacing WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. One should actually read the source to see if it supports its point.Adoring nanny (talk) 02:04, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose as consensus can change and the proposal to disallow further RfCs about past RfCs doesn't allow for CCC. --RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 11:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
    This proposal does not "disallow further RfCs about past RfCs". It discourages "repetitive objections to such general-purpose discussions and RFCs". — Newslinger talk 11:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Bellingcat (August 2019)[edit]

Is Bellingcat a reliable source? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC) I am here to request that Bellingcat be considered a RS. Here is information about the website which indicates that it is deserving of RS status:

  • Reliable outlets overwhelmingly describe Bellingcat as an investigative journalism website (or synonym) and cover its stories favorably: NPR (Bellingcat “ has meticulously investigated conflicts around the world”)[3], Guardian (“Bellingcat has been responsible for revealing key aspects of some of the world’s biggest stories”[4] + “in its short life has broken scoop after scoop”[5]), Wired (“ just the latest in an ongoing series of reve¬lations the Insider and Bellingcat have made”[6]), CBS News[7], New Yorker (“Bellingcat’s news-making investigations”[8]), Australian Broadcasting Corporation[9], AP[10], NYT[11], Reuters[12], DW[13], AFP[14], and BBC[15][16].
  • In an article for the NY Review of Books, University of Stirling journalism scholar Muhammad Idrees Ahmad said in June 2019, Bellingcat “ has chalked up an impressive record of breakthroughs… Its alums either lead, participate in, or support every notable open-source journalistic enterprise currently in operation. ”[17] According to Ahmad, Bellingcat is not only notable for its methodological sophistication but for the transparency of the process involved in uncovering stories. He notes that this has influenced legacy outlets to add greater transparency to their own reporting. INews writes, “Although most investigative journalism is shrouded in mystery, the [Bellingcat] platform shows their workings, detailing how they found out the story and which techniques they used”[18]
  • Favorable coverage by reliable outlets such as CJR[19], Poynter[20], the Tow Center for Digital Journalism[21], Nieman Lab [22][23], Foreign Policy magazine[24], and Human Rights Watch[25]. Poynter: "In the verification business, Bellingcat is a website on a hill... for fact-checkers and other journalists, Bellingcat has an open-source list of tools that are essential for any online investigation."[26] Bellingcat research has been cited in the International Court of Justice[27]. The Guardian described Bellingcat’s Skripal scoops as “a series of blockbuster investigations”.[28] The Financial Times described Bellingcat's podcast about its own reporting on MH17 as "Extraordinary in detail, tenacity and execution, you can practically smell the sweat that’s gone into making it."[29]
  • Major scoops and reports which were covered by establishment news outlets: Evidence that Russia was behind the MH17 downing[30][31], “broke the Skripal story”[32][33], "a comprehensive and contextualized report on the motives and movements of the Christchurch killer"[34], uses of chemical weapons in Syria[35], locating The Netherlands’ most-wanted criminal using Instagram,[36], a Russian troll factory website[37], a project to track military vehicle movements in Ukraine[38][39], . The International Criminal Court used information uncovered by Bellingcat in the arrest warrant for [[Mahmoud al-Werfalli].[40] and Bellingcat was “praised for the groundbreaking investigation” into a mass-killing in Cameroon.[41]
  • Bellingcat staff are frequently cited as experts[42][43]. The Tow Center for Digital Journalism recommends that journalists and journalism students see Bellingcat for how to report on user-generated content.[44][45] Poynter recommends a Bellingcat guide for using LinkedIn data.[46] This study recommends a Bellingcat guide to open-source investigations.[47] The Poynter Institute's International Fact-Checking Network published "A 5-point guide to Bellingcat's digital forensics tool list"[48].
  • Bellingcat staff have collaborated with the BBC[49][50]. Peer-reviewed books on digital journalism have chapters authored by Bellingcat journalists on how to conduct digital forensics.[51] Outlets such as the New York Times have hired Bellingcat staff as reporters.[52] Bellingcat’s Eliot Higgins sits on an advisory board for the International Criminal Court on the use of technology in ICC cases.[53]
  • According to Ahmad, Bellingcat has had an influence on journalsm: “Bellingcat’s successes have encouraged investment in open-source research capability by much larger and long-established media institutions (such as The New York Times Visual Investigations), human rights organizations (Amnesty’s Digital Verification Corps; Human Rights Watch’s soon-to-be-launched OSINT unit), think tanks (the Atlantic Council’s DFR Lab), and academic institutions (Berkeley’s Human Rights Investigations Lab).”[54]
  • Per Bellingcat, it has won the following awards: “Bellingcat has won The Hanns Joachim Friedrichs Prize in 2015, the European Press Prize for Innovation in 2017, the Ars Electronica Prize for Digital Communities in 2018, the European Press Prize for Investigation in 2019, and the London Press Club award for Digital Journalism in 2019. Bellingcat has also been involved with award winning collaborative projects, most recently the BBC Africa Eye investigation, Anatomy of a Killing, which has won multiple major journalism awards, including a Royal Television Society Award and Peabody Award.”[55]
  • Bellingcat has corrected news stories by legacy outlets such as the AP and NYT[56].

Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Survey: Is Bellingcat a reliable source?[edit]

  • Generally reliable. For the reasons presented above. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
  • See also: Talk:Douma chemical attack#RfC: Bellingcat coverage VQuakr (talk) 14:58, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable per Snooganssnoogans rather comprehensive overview above, as well as my own past experience with its coverage. Bellingcat is one of the best things to have happened in independent journalism in recent years. signed, Rosguill talk 20:47, 4 August 2019 (UTC) 20:09, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong No unless qualification included to indicate Bellingcat is a “grant-making organization that receives an annual appropriation from the U.S. Congress through the Department of State” which gives, at minimum, an appearance of bias. (About BellingcatNED FAQs) Humanengr (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
I think perhaps you have confused Bellingcat with the NED, from which Bellingcat receives a grant, but as far as I can tell, has no other relationship? Dumuzid (talk) 22:44, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Not confused. Bellingcat receives government money via NED, regardless of claims of independence. That suffices to taint. Humanengr (talk) 22:49, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
But would you agree with me that Bellingcat is not a "grant-making organization"? That is NED. Dumuzid (talk) 22:56, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Doesn’t make a difference if they are or aren’t. It’s that their existence and function is supported by government. As far as making grants, I do see on that link that, at minimum, they have staff. So in that sense, they admit to providing grants. Humanengr (talk) 23:11, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
It makes a difference to me in that I believe in the quaint notion that facts matter. Again, you are being unclear. In your view, does Bellingcat or NED "admit to providing grants"? Dumuzid (talk) 23:16, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
What ‘facts’ are you referring to? And no, I don’t see where Bellingcat verbatim “admit to providing grants.” Humanengr (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
The fact I mean is that you asserted that "Bellingcat is a 'grant-making organization that receives an annual appropriation from the U.S. Congress through the Department of State.'" This is simply untrue. They receive a grant from the NED, which fits that description. That may be enough for you to deem them unreliable, but it does not change the fact that they are independent organizations. Bellingcat, so far as I can tell, does not make grants, nor does it directly receive an annual appropriation from the U.S. Congress through the Department of State. Would you agree with me to that extent? Dumuzid (talk) 23:49, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
The money trail — U.S. -> NED -> Bellingcat — is obviously indirect. Independent? The Board makeup gives a different impression. But, yes, I do agree that “Bellingcat, so far as I can tell, does not make grants” per se, “nor does it directly receive an annual appropriation from the U.S. Congress through the Department of State.” Humanengr (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. Dumuzid (talk) 01:34, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
What does that have to do with its reliability? Reliable sources such as NPR, PRI, PBS, and Journal of Democracy are funded in part by the US government, as are countless peer-reviewed studies. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Opposing nation’s media would be / are lambasted for similar appearance. Fair is fair. Thx for the list. Humanengr (talk) 23:06, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
If you are referring to propaganda outlets like RT, Sputnik and TeleSur, the difference is that none of those outlets have a reputation for reliability and fact-checking whereas NPR, PRI, PBS, Journal of Democracy and Bellingcat do have reputations for reliability and fact-checking (as well as state-funded news outlets such as BBC, DR, SVT, NRK, CBC, ARD, YLE, RÚV, Sveriges Radio, Radio France etc. - [57]). That they are government-funded is not the reason per se why they are unreliable. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
’Reliable’ only as conferred by a self-reinforcing loop. Humanengr (talk) 23:23, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
At this point it seems like you have a fundamental issue with WP:RS. We define reliability based on a source's reputation among a network of other reliable sources; if you feel that the entire mainstream media is flawed and unreliable, you've fundamentally rejected WP:RS in favor of trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. --Aquillion (talk) 02:39, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
How about we start by applying WP:RS evenly? Any media that receives government funding gets treated the same, be it U.S.-allied or other is treated alike — banned, approved, approved w an attached caution. Humanengr (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware of there's not a single source that has been downgraded in RS status for the sole reason that it's in some way funded by a government entity. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
I believe you had mentioned RT, Sputnik and TeleSur. On what basis have judgments been made re those? Humanengr (talk) 22:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
They are not RS because they repeatedly publish falsehoods and conspiracy theories. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, past discussions on RT (Russia Today) (RSP entry), Sputnik (RSP entry), and Telesur (RSP entry) criticized these sources for spreading propaganda and disinformation. In particular, there are 30 in-depth reliable sources that explicitly describe RT as a propaganda outlet. The fact that these sources are closely connected to their respective governments indicates that they are partisan sources, but does not directly impact their reliability. Their low reliability is tied to their poor reputations for accuracy.

Now, TASS (RSP entry) is another case in which some editors questioned its reliability solely because it is operated by a country with low press freedom (Russia). However, other editors did not think that was the primary factor and expressed a range of opinions on different grounds. In any case, the US is not a country with the same scale of press freedom problems, and the same arguments would not apply here. — Newslinger talk 04:18, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

On what grounds do you distinguish ‘bias’ from ‘propaganda’ (Snooganssnoogans‘s term above)? Humanengr (talk) 23:37, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable. That said - I must ask why the question comes up - David Gerard (talk) 06:15, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Request requires amendment There are instructions at the top of this page and the create new section editing page. Please add links to the previous discussions in the archive to your request, the most recent of which I note is highly unfavorable and suggests a certain degree of consensus as generally unreliable. Please provide a link to the specific blog post on the bellingcat site you are seeking to cite. Finally please indicate the WP article in which you want to cite bellingcat and the text in the article you want it to support, either as quote or diff. (edit:piped link) Cambial Yellowing(❧) 07:25, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Looking through that previous discussion, it appears that occurred in 2015, when Bellingcat was just under a year old and there wasn't a track record of RS using its reporting or otherwise commenting on it. While the call of self-published/unreliable was the correct judgment at the time, we now have a sizable body of evidence that Bellingcat conducts reliable journalism. If you have more recent coverage suggesting that it's unreliable, then that's a different matter. That having been said, I do agree that it's a bit weird for an editor to come to RSN to make an argument about a given source without a context--generally the procedure is to either get wider feedback on a dispute involving a source's reliability, or someone with no familiarity with a source trying to get a basic sanity check on whether it's usable. signed, Rosguill talk 17:12, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
@Rosguill: I added a link to a current article talk space discussion and RfC regarding this source. I presume that discussion is what prompted this post here. Maybe the "general" presentation of the query here was to mirror the similar presentation of the 2015 discussion? VQuakr (talk) 17:34, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable per Snooganssnoogans. David Gerard, the reason that the reliability of bellingcat is being discussed is likely because Cambial Yellowing, a three-month-old account, has been attempting to purge bellingcat's highly reliable coverage of the Douma chemical attack from that article, citing an RSN discussion from 2015. Furthermore, this account has continually and falsely characterized bellingcat as a "highly dubious blog." (As an aside: Cambial Yellowing, if you have previously edited Wikipedia as another account or an IP, you might want to disclose that now.)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Please stay on topic, TheTimesAreAChanging. The age of my account, as you know, is totally irrelevant. I will thank you to refrain from making thinly-veiled and groundless accusations. That is not a form of argument, and is inappropriate behavior. You have given your opinion; there is no reason to pretend others' opinions are, in your view, "false". You are, presumably, not a child. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 08:39, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

  • Generally reliable per Snooganssnoogans, et al. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 10:08, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable, with the obvious caveat that context matters. I would expect WP:EXCEPTIONAL to be carefully considered here. VQuakr (talk) 14:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Reliable in general as per all the above comments. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable per Snooganssnoogans, Rosguill, and my own experience with them. - GretLomborg (talk) 18:14, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally unreliable Lol, if anyone thinks that the US government gives money to "neutral" sources/information, they need to think again. Or read, say Who Paid the Piper? or a zillion other such works. Eliot Higgins was an unemployed guy with ZERO academic background in the Middle East area, and then he got funding as he wrote what "some people" liked. (BTW, I was just re−reading about the 2001 anthrax attacks and Bruce Edwards Ivins: please note all those American WP:RS who reported that "this was the chemical signature of Iraqi-made anthrax". A complete lie. Heh, not to mention the Nayirah testimony: US sources a have a LOOOOOOOOOONG history of falsification when it comes to any military conflict that the US is involved in. Sorry, but that is just the facts.) Huldra (talk) 21:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Just to be clear, Bellingcat does receive a grant from an organization funded by the U.S. government. It receives no government money directly, as far as I can glean. Moreover, it also receives similar grants from the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, and is headquartered in the U.K. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:34, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
And.....? Do you think a single one of the writers/authors who were paid by the CIA during the last 70 years were paid directly by the CIA? Not that I can see, And do you really think that the US is the only government playing these games? Huldra (talk) 21:13, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
And who are you, Mr/Ms, who knows me so well? And yes, I do recall, say, Judith Miller, working for The New York Times, getting a Pulitzer prize (together with the rest of the NYT team) in 2002, for (among other things), "proving" that Saddam Hussein had WMDs at the time ....One could roar with laugher, ......if it hadn't been for all those hundred of thousands civilians Iraqis killed, and millions who became refugees (many in Western Europe, where I see you are?) As the expression goes: "Fool me once: shame on you. Fool me twice: shame on me". Huldra (talk) 21:13, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable per Snoo's exhaustive research. Neutralitytalk 00:12, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally unreliable but with occasional reliable for attribution content. The site's main author offers many attempts at analysis of highly technical subjects under the rubric of open-source investigation. These analyses lack scientific detail and rigor. They have undergone no peer review process nor scientific editorial control. The author, Eliot Higgins, is an education dropout with no scientific training and no qualifications in any scientific field. The site's editor is a journalist and poet with a BA in English and no scientific background. While Snoogans has collected an extensive list of journalists and serious journalism-related sources which support the site, notably absent is a single reference from a scientific publication or scientific organization working in the technical fields in which the author is claiming to offer serious analysis. The author's work has come under severe criticism, including from qualified and recognized experts in those fields. Its response has often been far from scholarly.
Just as we would not cite the London Telegraph or the New York Times on the copenhagen interpretation or flash suppression, Bellingcat is not a scholarly source for the technical areas on which it frequently seeks to comment — determining weapons delivery trajectories, chemical dispersal, aircraft physics, and so on.
The site has some content which is not technical, but simply careful work in non-technical areas done online. Some of this content appears useful and potentially reliable, though there is little attempt made to test the provenance and integrity of the image content which it is examining "forensically". Such on-the-ground investigation would be fundamental to any serious professional forensic investigator's examination of such material.
There is some content which is written by individuals with subject expertise, and therefore useful with attribution. It comes with the caveat of also having undergone no peer review process nor scientific editorial control. Just as we would not rely on papers written by specialists but unpublished and unreviewed, the articles of this type can similiarly not be relied upon for material in Wikipedia voice.
As I stated before, the request above needs to include the specific content that editor is seeking to reference and the text they wish to support, per the instructions at the top, in order to form a proper assessment. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 01:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Oppose findings of general reliability or unreliability for government-funded organizations. (Yes, I know the NED is a private foundation receiving money from the US Congress, which then finances -- inter alia -- Bellingcat). In my experience even the "best" sources can turn out to have been unreliable (NYT, for example). I believe we should proceed on a case by case bias... is // Elliot Higgins // a reliable source for // X // claim... Here I assume the real issue that prompted opening this "general" reliability thread was Higgins publishing on 4 Aug 2019 a negative piece about Tulsi Gabbard. This explains why the thread was opened on 4 Aug 2019 by the principal author of Tulsi Gabbard's BLP. (as of 4 Aug 2019) 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 15:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable, but some cautions exist. The concerns about its funding and potential bias stemming from that are not generally an issue to using a source (for instance, we rely on the CIA World Factbook), provided there's no indication that that potential bias has caused them to release inaccurate or misleading information; but they do have to be considered when evaluating WP:DUE weight or WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims, so it's still worth keeping in mind. Regarding the concern that it's not as reliable as an academic paper written by a specialist - I mean, that's a pretty high bar? But also, it's important to remember that those papers also have issues - they're frequently difficult for non-experts to assess or weigh, and rarely provide the broad overviews that we need for our articles; it's very easy for papers, taken out of context, to produce a misleading view, which is one of the reasons eg. WP:MEDRS urges caution. Secondary high-quality analysis sites like this, while they obviously have their own limitations, are important to fill the gap between "breaking news stories" and "in-depth technical papers by experts". --Aquillion (talk) 19:29, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
What you describe as a "pretty high bar" is the standard set by sourcing policy. Secondary analysis means review articles, monographs, textbooks or other materials written by experts, which reference the relevant specialist material. It does not mean amateur sleuths who have no training in the field, and make no reference to the relevant specialism and literature. Cambial Yellowing(❧) 22:08, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:RS doesn't say what you say it does. You are citing a subsection of the section WP:SOURCETYPES, which lists several different types of sources. If our sourcing of specific historical events from the last few years was limited to peer reviewed articles, our coverage would be scant indeed. The actual definition of a secondary source, as used on Wikipedia, is at WP:SECONDARY. VQuakr (talk) 15:30, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Questionable Strong Oppose - after reading NPR article and seeing dependence on social media as their source - can't believe it is even being considered as a source. 12:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC) - editorial board filled with reputable professionals? No...uhm, so where does the information come from - has he subscribed to a newswire? Surely he doesn't go out in the field and do investigative journalism, or does he? What makes it reliable - what makes any source "reliable"? Stick with academic sources and stop depending on RECENTISM. Atsme Talk 📧 21:42, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
The links above (for me, especially this one) do a pretty good job of answering your questions. It may not convince you of reliability (or indeed may convince you otherwise), but at least some light may be shed. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • ‘IFFY - IT DEPENDS’ - I’d say maybe, depending on context. This seems more like one persons blog that grew into a sophisticated Blog, rather than meeting the usual RS criteria of press sources. I’m seeing no announced self statement on their website, no editorial controls, no retractions evidencing good practices and self-admission when wrong. The articles look to be hard fact-oriented analysis, but I’m not seeing a stable topic focus or staff that built expertise up.
  • Acceptable with attribution, whether undue or not would be decided on a case by case basis, for the reasons laid aout above. NPR says "an international Internet research organization that has meticulously investigated conflicts around the world". I don't think we get to decide it's unreliable just because it documents a Trumper being radicalised in a very short space of time. Guy (Help!) 21:36, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally unreliable Granted, I'm an IP user so you don't have to listen to me, but anyone could sit at home and use Wikipedia and Google Maps to build enough scaffolding around whatever the State Department's line is in order to support it. "Open-source investigation" is a euphemism for "amateur Internet detective work", and Bellingcat is only well-regarded because it gives any point being made the appearance of rational, researched, nonpartisan, and civilian legitimacy. (talk) 19:32, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Generally reliable for news topics. Bellingcat's favorable reputation for fact-checking and accuracy has been confirmed by a large number of reliable sources. The evidence presented by Snooganssnoogans shows that Bellingcat is frequently used by other reliable sources. The site's open-source intelligence methodology allows its research to be easily verified by other reliable sources, and has earned the site ample credibility despite being new. We do not require academic peer review for news topics unrelated to biomedicine. As always, caution and in-text attribution are recommended for controversial claims. — Newslinger talk 05:01, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Not really familiar with Bellingcat, but in any case I prefer attribution for controversial statements for this kind of work. Open-source investigation is not free from bias, as verifiability does not necessarily imply full coverage and neutrality. DaßWölf 05:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Users should apply WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Except in extreme cases, which this is not, it's far preferable to a blanket rule that thus-and-such a source is or is not WP:RS.Adoring nanny (talk) 01:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: As I mentioned above, the article that appeared the day this blanket reliability thread was opened is sharply critical of Tulsi Gabbard.[1] It is unclear if this is the article that we are meant to be evaluating the reliability of. Nevertheless, I think it is worth spending a moment looking at it. Though the article spends a lot of time discrediting MIT weapons expert Theodore Postol, it oddly completely glosses over the publication of his strong denunciation of the OPCW report after an engineering assessment was leaked to the Working Group on Syria, Propaganda, and Media <-- why is this red?? in May 2019.[2] Since then both Postol & former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter have been sharply critical of the mainstream media's criticism of Gabbard's skepticism.[3][4] Neither Postol (who points out how easy it would be to shoot helicopters flying at 50-100m above a building in Douma) or Ritter (who addresses Khan Shaykhun saying the Douma airstrike has already been "largely debunked") bother to spend too much time addressing Higgins' messy piece directly, though in time it seems pretty clear (to me at least) that the surprising lack of discussion of this major development (and the attempt to discredit Postol) will end up having been quite damaging not only to the credibility of this Bellingcat piece, but quite possibly to Bellingcat's general reliability as well. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 19:40, 17 August 2019 (UTC)


  1. ^ Elliot Higgins (August 4, 2019). "Tulsi Gabbard's Reports on Chemical Attacks in Syria -- A Self-Contradictory Error Filled Mess". bellingcat.
  2. ^ Institute for Public Accuracy (June 6, 2019). "Postol on Syrian Attacks: OPCW Guilty of "Deception"". Institute for Public Accuracy.
  3. ^ Aron Maté; Theodore Postol (August 15, 2019). "Top scientist denounces smears of Tulsi Gabbard on Syria". The Grayzone.
  4. ^ Ritter, Scott (August 14, 2017). "Tulsi Gabbard Gets Some Vindication". Truthdig. Retrieved August 17, 2019.

The "if the user's identity is confirmed in some way" part of Twitter as WP:RS[edit]

There is currently a dispute involving SpongeBob SquarePants articles (particularly Kamp Koral) and the Twitter accounts of the show's producers Vincent Waller and Paul Tibbitt, both of which do not have the blue tick that says "verified". User @Magitroopa: has constantly removed Twitter citings from either person on the no-blue-tick-that-says-verified ground. User also removed a news article from Heavy just because it cited PT's twitter (for the record WP:RSP's entry for Heavy lists it as "no consensus", and please look at the "serious and contentious" part), and at one point even called PT's twitter "supposed".

On July 15 user @Amaury: reverted an announcement on SB Season 13 that came from VT on the aforementioned NBTTSV ground.

But on July 20, user @SBSPfan: claimed that "[t]hese two Twitter accounts have repeatedly been confirmed to be the actual crew members (posting photos of themselves and of production, interacting with other verified accounts, etc.) In terms of WP:RS, there is no reasonable doubt at all that they're the people they're representing". Of course, someone should look at WP:RSP's Twitter entry and see if anyone agrees with me that it should satisfy the "if the user's identity is confirmed in some way" part. (The identity-confirmed-in-some-way part makes it very clear that just not having blue-tick won't make it non-RS), so we should also keep track of all of these kinds of Twitters on a separate page. Lots of famous people (can't bother to name who) don't even have a blue-tick. Even the director of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse took a long time to get one, and by the time his "not having a blue mark" problem had been brought up on Mashable, he had directed an Oscar-winning animated film that made $375.5 million) If it doesn't work, someone ask VW and PT to apply for the blue tick.

FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 21:40, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

On mobile right now so can't do/say much atm. I'll wait to see what others think, but I do think it's worth noting the case is similar to Knight Squad ending. The series stays as "present" as of right now, even though the supposed Twitter of the creator says its ended. It's been reverted multiple times, with a conversation about it on the talk page as well. Magitroopa (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
The tweets in concern are about a lot of stuff in a TV show, not just its fate. On an unrelated note, the Knight Squad tweet would not be usuable for determining that show's fate even if it met the "in some way" criteria because "[the poster of the tweet, Knight Squad's creator Sean W. Cunningham] doesn't outright say canceled" and "series' fates are controlled by networks, not the producers" FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 22:55, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
New update: @Magitroopa: removed cartoonbrew source as not RS, same as in with Heavy source. On an unrelated note, @SBSPfan: (who I'll re-ping) claimed that the accounts are real and even had picture of themselves and production, but someone needs to search both of the twitter feeds for these supposedly existant pictures so that the "confirmed in some way" is fulfilled. Also pinging everyone from the Knight Squad discussion @Amaury, Rtkat3, IJBall, and Geraldo Perez:, since there is a similar context there and can apply anywhere. Also repinging @Magitroopa:. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 21:05, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Sources discussed: Heavy (which is listed at WP:RS/P as "no consensus", see that page for details) and Cartoonbrew FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 21:05, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Unverified Twitter accounts should not be used to source info such as show premieres and endings, cast information, etc., though Geraldo Perez will have further thoughts on this. On Cartoon Brew, their About page makes it unclear to me as to whether it would be considered enough of a WP:RS to be usable – other editors will have to weigh in on this question. However, I agree with Magitroopa that the section that was added based on the Cartoon Brew was WP:UNDUE and should not be at the article (certainly not as a dedicated section)... As an aside, it's a real question in my mind as to whether the Kamp Koral article even currently qualifies for an article under WP:TVSHOW – yes, it has apparently entered production, but it does not have even an approximate scheduled premiere date yet, and thus doesn't look to meet WP:TVSHOW IMO. --IJBall (contribstalk) 21:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
A non-verified twitter should be attached to the user in some reliable source that can be verified, hopefully easily. Best would be a reliable secondary source to make the connection such as a news article that mentions the person's twitter account. A bit weaker but still acceptable would be some other verified social media account of someone else who demonstratively has good reason to personally know the unverified person to vouch for the identity in some way. A known coworker, the network, a production account. "Everyone knows" without proof is unacceptable. Once the account is verified in some way to be attached to the person we can treat it as we would a blue checkmarked account. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:03, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
@IJBall: Regarding the WP:UNDUE issue, there was a similar issue here: @EvergreenFir: removed the Cartoon Brew sourcing regarding Chris Savino's sexual harassment allegations due to both WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP issues, so it seems both (along with WP:NPOV apply to the Kamp Koral issue for the timebeing. On an unrelated note, can I take Kamp Koral to WP:AFD, since there's a WP:TOOSOON issue there? FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 01:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
@Magitroopa and Geraldo Perez: It's now at AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kamp Koral. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 02:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
And as for @Geraldo Perez:, both of the sources mention PT's apparent twitter as, well, PT's twitter. The Heavy source only sources it to a copy of a summary of a petition (WP:SPS). The Cartoon Brew source indirectly acknowledges it as PT's twitter but, given that Cartoon Brew's reliability has just been questioned here, I'd best avoid it. Guess someone has to ask him and VW to apply for the blue tick. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 01:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

What, exactly, is the concern with Cartoon Brew? I've been using it as a source for years, and not once has anyone ever suggested that it might not qualify as a reliable source. Cartoon Brew is arguably regarded as one the leading sources available for animation-related news, and as its "About" section states, the website is under the direct editorial oversight of a well-regarded author and historian, Amid Amidi, who has been cited as an animation/art expert by both Variety [58] and the Los Angeles Times [59]. Even Time magazine's website has linked off to Cartoon Brew. [60] So I really don't think there should be any question that Cartoon Brew is a quality source.

It looks like Paul Tibbitt isn't very active on Twitter, which might explain why he's never bothered to become verified; since starting his account in 2012, he's apparently only tweeted 85 times. I haven't noticed any instances of him interacting with verified accounts, but maybe I've missed something - is anyone able to point to an example of him doing that? Even if not, I still think that we should be able to treat his Twitter account as a reliable source, considering that Cartoon Brew says that it's an authentic account.

Vincent Waller is a lot more active on Twitter than Tibbitt, and even though I haven't noticed any instances of Waller *interacting* with verified accounts, I did notice that Waller is followed by the verified accounts of Clancy Brown, the voice of Mr. Krabs, and Ian Jones-Quartey, the creator of a Cartoon Network series called OK K.O.! Let's Be Heroes. A lot of non-verified accounts belonging to other animation professionals interact with Waller regularly on Twitter. And Cartoon Brew cites Waller's Twitter account in this article.

It might be worth noting that even Tom Kenny (the voice of SpongeBob) hasn't bothered to verify his Twitter account [61], although in his case, his humorous profile photo makes the authenticity of his account indisputable. -Jpcase (talk) 18:51, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I dug a little further through Tibbitt's followers on Twitter, and turns out that he's followed by quite a few verified accounts - e.g. Lori Alan (the voice of Pearl on SpongeBob), Craig McCracken (the creator of The PowerPuff Girls and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends), Thurop Van Orman (the creator of The Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack), Eric Bauza (a prolific Daytime Emmy and Annie Award nominated voice actor), and Lizz Hickey (who created a short film, called Lazybones, for Nickelodeon). --Jpcase (talk) 15:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Media Bias/Fact Check at Toronto Sun[edit]

Media Bias/Fact is being used at Toronto Sun to describe the paper's orientation. I've removed it twice; Alaney2k is edit warring to restore it. So, I guess we get to discuss MB/FC here again. Is this a reliable source for the paper's orientation? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

  • Is this how you discuss? I have started a discussion point at Talk:Toronto Sun#editorial position. I am trying to make a non-sourced section into a sourced one. Let's build some consensus. Alaney2k (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Can someone please systematically remove MBFC from Wikipedia pages? It's not a RS. It irks me to no end that this website is used to categorize news outlets on Wikipedia. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    • I rephrased it to describe it as an example of an opinion about the paper. Is it not usable in that case, either? Alaney2k (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
      • How can you not understand basic Wikipedia policies? We don't cite the opinions of unreliable sources on Wikipedia. I'm beginning to think your pending changes reviewer right needs to be revoked. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Really? Is this how you discuss? With threats? Not appropriate in any context. IMO, you need to turn it down a notch. Drink less coffee. :-) Alaney2k (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Why does anybody even need it? The Sun's editorial positions are WP:BLUESKY. Simonm223 (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
        • Not true. WP:RSOPINION allows non-reliable sources' opinions to be used. That said, the use of those opinions then fall under WP:UNDUE (as to avoid any random site's opinion from being added). --Masem (t) 17:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
      • No, the website's ratings of news outlets are as reliable as my own ratings of news outlets. Neither belong in articles, whether it's in Wiki voice or attributed. 16:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
  • MBFC is a self-published source, so no, not reliable for any statement in wikivoice, and undue weight for any statement of opinion, even if attributed. Neutralitytalk 22:22, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
What is Snopes? Atsme Talk 📧 02:42, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
A self-published source with a much better reputation. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:45, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider Snopes (RSP entry) self-published, as it has a sizable team. Snopes is also accredited by the International Fact-Checking Network (2018 evaluation), while Media Bias/Fact Check (RSP entry) is not. — Newslinger talk 17:09, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Alternative Vision[edit]

There's a bit of a dearth of reliable reviews of nu metal (not helped by it being a terrible genre, but that's by the by).

Alternative Vision looks like, despite a casual setup, it might be relatively reliable. Example review

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosebagbear (talkcontribs) 15:30, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Do any of the staff have any sort of credentials other than liking metal bands? Sergecross73 msg me 15:38, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm not convinced – it seems to be a blog that has expanded with further contributors, but all just music enthusiasts. The reviews seem to be 95% by the website's founder. It hasn't conducted any interviews with any artists for more than three years. The "News" section is simply reproducing press releases or information found on other websites, none of it is their own work. Richard3120 (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
That’s consistent with my thoughts too. It’s just another “enthusiasts website” where the only credentials are “loving the given subject”. That’s not how Wikipedia defines reliable sources. It looks unreliable. Sergecross73 msg me 18:42, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Sources at Media bias in the United States for claims of censorship of conservative content[edit]

This is a pretty big article and I haven't looked at all of it, just one section under "Liberal biss", " Claims of Censorship of Conservative Content". I'm pinging the editor who added this, User:Gem095 - a new account which probably explains the use of soueces, including using an article of ours as a source.

I don't know Axios, but I'm not convinced that this[62] is a good enough source for "An article published by Axios in August 2018 reported that YouTube would begin displaying comments from Wikipedia and other third-party sources alongside videos they deemed to be controversial or propagating false information. The effort was criticized by some as an attempt to censor content that YouTube did not agree with, thereby creating an “echo-chamber” for consumers."

The Hill (newspaper) is used to back "The pair of African-American, North Carolina-based sisters have garnered a large conservative fanbase due to their pro-Trump beliefs and their defense of Trump’s rhetoric on race and immigration. Hardaway and Richardson claimed that Facebook was unfairly censoring their content and had also noticed that their 1.2 million followers were not receiving the usual alerts when the pair published new posts." I admit that I'm concerned that so many conservative sources are used in this section on liberal bias, but in this case I don't see where the article[63] discusses the reasons for their fanbase - I don't even see a mention of race or immigration or Trump's rhetoric. As a side issue, the source's " they observed in September that their 1.2 million Facebook followers were not getting the usual alerts whenever they posted new content." is very similar to "noticed that their 1.2 million followers were not receiving the usual alerts when the pair published new posts." I don't think that's sufficiently paraphrased to avoid being copyvio.

Does this article from The Hill[64] back "A number of conservatives and supporters of Kelly argued that Twitter had violated its own policy stating that it would “explain which policy or policies [the user] violated and which content was in violation.”"? I see only one.

Are The Daily Signal, the Apple App store[65] sufficient to argue that the "Inconvenient Facts' app was censored? Note that the 2nd Daily Signal source[66] lists the reasons Apple dropped it, point out that those were remedied and that the app was reinstatedl. It looks to me as though this was all speculation based on the fact that Al Gore is on the Apple board - sure, maybe correct speculation, but the sources don't seem sufficient.

The last paragraph in that section has a claim about a Google employee labeling some individuals as Nazis. The first source is the Washington Examiner[67] which is a dubious source but worse, that article is based on the 2nd[68] and 3rd[69] source, Project Veritas, which even the Examiner calls a "right-wing operative group".

A couple of other comments - it's not just that section where there are problems. A quick peek at the "Conservative bias" section shows one source is a Forbes contributor - not an RS, and the "Author" section looks a mess. Doug Weller talk 18:26, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to go through these sources one at at time.
  1. Axios seems like a new media organization. Their website is pretty low on details about editorial standards, so I'd treat them with a grain of salt. That said, without a link to the article mentioned, it can't be used as an RS regardless.
  2. The Hill can be used to support that Hardaway and Richardson made claims, but it does raise the question of whether their claims are WP:DUE - are there other sources supporting this was a notable case?
  3. The Hill cannot be used as a source that multiple conservatives and supporters of Kelly yadda yadda yadda. They listed some twitter noise. But that's not WP:RS even when it's reposted by a media enterprise.
  4. The Apple Store is not a reliable source.
  5. The Daily Signal is not a reliable source.
  6. The Washington Examiner is not a reliable source.
  7. Project Veritas is definitely not a reliable source. Simonm223 (talk) 18:50, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. Regarding the specific sources: the Axios cite seems to be a simple misreading of the source: Axios is noting that Youtubes algorithm has been criticized for creating an ideological echo-chamber, and that citing Wikipedia is an effort (however ill-advised) to combat that. Daily Signal is essentially just the Heritage foundation, and is a borderline unusable source for anything related to climate change. I can't find any coverage of this story from a reliable source, and it really looks like it's just a plug for the app. The Project Veritas stuff should definitely be scrapped unless there's additional coverage - I think we're at the point now where reliable sources no longer even bother debunking their "investigations", but nothing they've done in the past has held up to under any serious scrutiny.
Ultimately, I'm not sure any of this really falls under "media bias" to begin with, but at the very least, the section shouldn't be a list of assorted anecdotes. Nblund talk 19:00, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Agreeing with Simon's assessement of the sources.
Also to add: seeing this reminded me I saw this CRJ article this morning [70] that probably has more links to help fill out that section, and also that I've been adding to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act which has been in the news a LOT lately which should also be linked (GOP senators have been looking to add neutrality to a law, and there's word that an EO is floating around in draft stages to modify Section 230 require neutrality [71]). --Masem (t) 19:09, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Are there any center right RS?? You know, for balance so that we're not citing only those RS that agree with us? Atsme Talk 📧 02:46, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
That beloved chart lists The Hill, The Wall Street Journal and Foreign Policy as center right. All three have plenty of opinion pieces and some articles about this type of allegation. Maybe one of those is based on more than a tweet. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:58, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
None of the sources proffered are to the left of center-right at all. (Excluding those things like the Apple Store that aren't sources at all.) If you believe that WSJ and The Hill are to the left, perhaps you need to adjust your Overton Window. Simonm223 (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with what I take to be the emerging consensus here that the listed sources are inappropriate. The Hill and Axios are marginally adequate in general, but do not support the content in question. The other sources are pretty much unfit, period. The Columbia Journalism Review is a reliable source, and the article linked by Masem above suggests in no uncertain terms that the "media bias" issue, at least as it applies to organizations like Facebook and Google, is a made-up grievance and a "conspiracy theory" circulated by right-wing outlets, and that the conservative attack on Section 230 of the CDA is "based on a fundamental misunderstanding" of the law. Masem, are you working to incorporate that source into Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act? MastCell Talk 16:34, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    • "Platform neutrality" is the section on that but I haven't added the CRJ to it yet. I think in context, that definitely does need to be added. --Masem (t) 16:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Agree with the above: Of those originally listed, only Axios is anything other than garbage, and they have a worrying tendency to false balance. I'd want much better sources. I consider CJR generally reliable, I don't think that's controversial. Guy (Help!) 16:43, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Some thoughts on the disputed sources from Special:Diff/908744552:
  • On further reflection, and having seen this elsewhere recently: This whole "criticized by some" thing needs to die in a fire. Any time egregious bullshit is addressed, by removal, demonetisation, or adding fact-check boxes, people bitch and moan. Some people are deeply invested in climate change denial, antivaccinationism, homeopathy, creationism and al l manner of buillshit, and they deeply resent any attempt to water down their promotion of this bullshit by placing it alongside factual information. We can and should ignore that. So they write an op-ed or get quoted in one article. So what? Ignore it unless there is substantive and weighty discussion of an actual problem (i.e a problem which is not of the form "YouTube said my flat earth video was bullshit"). Guy (Help!) 19:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

PhD thesis[edit]

Normally I'm not much of a one for PhD theses as a source, but this from Sharon Lockyer has the potential to be very useful in sourcing a number of recurring themes in articles related to Private Eye. Lockyer is a tenured academic at Brunel University now, which is a respected institution, and she publishes on media controversy and comedy, which is squarely on point for this thesis. It contains an in-depth discussion of the Eye's long-running disputes with Maxwell (incidentally Ghislaine Maxwell's father), Goldsmith and others. I'd intend to use this when drawing the "frequent flyer" disputes together in a section in the main article. Proceed with caution, or ignore and reference the primary sources it cites? Guy (Help!) 12:48, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

A PhD thesis is usable as a source, but it does require caution because the standards for them are generally lower and because a thesis often focuses on something that isn't borne out by later papers. I would say it can be used for simple, uncontroversial details, but shouldn't be used for anything potentially controversial, defamatory, or WP:EXCEPTIONAL. --Aquillion (talk) 17:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. Assuming the institution from which the author graduated is legitimate (in the U.S. context I'd want to know if the institution, and perhaps the specific degree program, is accredited) and there's nothing odd about the thesis and its related processes (e.g., was successfully defended and accepted by the institution, followed the institution's policies, was accepted by a group of qualified faculty and experts) then it's certainly a reliable source. But that doesn't mean that it's a very good source; WP:DUE is a separate question altogether. ElKevbo (talk) 02:32, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

FDA import ban list. Reliable source?[edit]

Hello, I am a fully disclosed paid editor representing Neal's Yard Remedies. I would like to call into question the reliability of this source. It is a primary source and it has been used to support a statement relating to alledged microbacterial contamination. There is no mention of the import ban anywhere else on the internet so we have no way of verifying the facts. Thank you. Essayist1 (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

What do your employers say about the import ban? Are they saying it didn't happen, because clearly it did, that document appears to support the fact that some NY products were import banned, yes? -Roxy, the dog. wooF 16:40, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
It strikes me as a reliable primary source for the fact; I think this is more an issue of due weight. Every company of sufficient size sometimes runs afoul of regulations—this is not worth mentioning in the article if no independent sources report it. Kim Post (talk) 18:39, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Different issues, this is about is the source reliable.Slatersteven (talk) 14:33, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Kim Post. The issue is weight. Companies fail on regulations every once in a while. Furthermore, it is about detention of a shipment, not that there is a definite ban on the company. If no mainstream media reported such an issue, then it is not relevant to the article since maybe they got it fixed and then it would not be detained anymore.Ramos1990 (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Kurdish Press[edit]

How about this source?Does it suit for the following text in "Women's rights in Iran"?

On November 28, 2018 guards in khoy women prison, north west of Iran, attacked inmate Zeynab Jalalian and confiscated all her belongings. She was arrested in February 2007
Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 13:39, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Might be usable with attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 16:42, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
it is a povish source, for example, does not say anything, why she was arrested and report her situation just based on "a reliable source, has told Kurdistan Human Rights Network (KHRN)". Now is it useable?Saff V. (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Please read WP:BIASED Shrike (talk) 06:08, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
@Shrike: @Slatersteven: OK, but how about the base of the report, it was mentioned in the report that "a reliable source, has told Kurdistan Human Rights Network (KHRN)"? Is it trustable?Saff V. (talk) 06:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
NO, it may be included (as I said) with attribution. But we cannot say it is a fact.Slatersteven (talk) 08:45, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


On Antifa (United States) an editor recently made this edit [72]. They have provided no justification for their claim that GQ is not reliable and when pressed at talk outright refused to explain how the source was not reliable. Can we get some third party opinions please? Simonm223 (talk) 16:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume it is not as RS as any other magazine of this type.Slatersteven (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • GQ seems obviously reliable (and in any case the sentence merely summarizes the rest of the section, so it's not even clear it requires a source - though having one helps avoid the risk of WP:SYNTH.) Based on their comments, it looks like they were confused in that they believed WP:RS/P was an exhaustive list of every single acceptable source; they thought GQ wasn't usable because it isn't listed there. --Aquillion (talk) 17:11, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Modern GQ is absolutely fine and reliable. I wouldn't use them for world political news, but Antifa would come under their scope. --Masem (t) 17:17, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Agree its reliable for non-controversial matters Atlantic306 (talk) 19:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • GQ should not be relied upon for unattributed facts on matters of political controversy. It is a men's fashion magazine, and is therefore RS on matters of men's fashion. It is irritating that no notification of this discussion was posted at the Antifa talk page. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:53, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It's worth remembering that Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for a piece published in GQ and it wasn't about men's fashion. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:01, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • GQ in the past was a fashion magazine. It has shifted to broader matters related to modern men issues in more recent years, and retains a high quality editorial board. --Masem (t) 19:03, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • GQ is a fashion magazine. That doesn't mean that every article is about fashion. It should also be noted that this men's fashion magazine leans very left, and does not appear to make any clear distinction between reporting and opinion. Shinealittlelight (talk) 19:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
  • It's a lifestyle magazine. Which includes politics. It certainly has both the editorial rigour we expect from a reliable source, and the subject matter is within its current remit. For this claim, the source is reliable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Reliable - Definitely a reliable source with editorial oversight. Condé Nast, which I believe is GQ's parent company, also owns Vogue, Vanity Fair, Glamour, Self, The New Yorker, Condé Nast Traveler, Allure, AD, Bon Appétit, and Wired, all of which are considered reliable. Meatsgains(talk) 20:13, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Reliable Quality publication with respected journalists and editorial oversight. Bacondrum (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Some articles[edit]

There are plenty of sources used in Women's rights in Iran and I am going to know about their reliability:

  • Camara, Andrea (April 22, 2018). "Women's Rights in Iran during the Years of Shah, Ayatollah Khomeini, and Khamenei". Stars: 5–60.

for With the rise of each regime, a series of mandates for women's rights arose, which affected a broad range of issues from voting rights to dress code...During the Qajar, the royal dynasty that ruled Iran from the late 1800s to the early 20th century, women were more isolated as they were not engaged in politics, and their economic contribution was limited to household work. These conditions transformed to a great extent during the Pahlavi regime from 1925-1979 where women had much more freedom

for Women's rights in Iran are limited compared to the women in developed nations. The World Economic Forum’s 2017 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Iran 140 out of 144 countries for gender parity. Women in Iran constitute 19% of the workforce in 2017 with only 7% growth since 1990.

for In 2017, the Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace, and Security (WPS) Index ranked Iran in the bottom tercile of 153 countries.Compared to other South Asian regions, women in Iran have a better access to financial accounts, education, and cellphones. However, Iran ranked 116 out of the 153 countries in terms of legal discrimination against women.

  • "Overview". World Bank. Archived from the original on September 23, 2016. Retrieved 2018-12-11.

for According to a 2018 World Bank report, the female labor force participation rate has reached 19.8%, a marked improvement despite a wide gender gap

for When the Iranian Revolution started in 1977, many women protested by marching in metropolitan cities and wore chadors as a sign of protest. Women played a significant role in the success of the revolution... "Our uprising is indebted to women. Men took the example of the women into the streets. Women encouraged the men to revolt, and sometimes even led the way. Woman is a wonderful creature. She possesses fiendish, strong [and] passionate capabilities."(Imam Khomeini, 6/5/1980)

  • Kian, Azadeh (1997). "Women and Politics in Post-Islamist Iran: The Gender Conscious Drive to Change". British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies. Taylor & Francis, Ltd. 24 (1): 75–96. doi:10.1080/13530199708705639. JSTOR 195669.

for After the Islamic revolution Khomeini said that "Women have the right to intervene in politics. It is their duty, Islam is a political religion"

forCompulsory hijab was re-instated for Iranian state employees after the Islamic revolution in 1979, followed by a law for requiring the wearing of hijab in all public spaces in 1983.

for Wearing a headscarf has been strictly enforced in Iran and has been since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Women who do not wear a hijab or are deemed to be wearing 'bad hijab' by having some of their hair showing face punishments ranging from fines to imprisonment. It was announced that in the beginning of 2018, women would no longer be arrested for wearing 'bad hijab' in public. Though the announcement was viewed as a moderate improvement, activists campaigning against compulsory hijab have still since been targeted by police

Thanks alot. Saff V. (talk) 10:58, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you asking if these are, or are not RS?Slatersteven (talk) 13:12, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes i ask they are Useable in the article or not.Saff V. (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
I see no reason why not.Slatersteven (talk) 14:46, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for response. For Camara source,it was mentioned in the article for this source that better source is needed as well as Tafreshi source is a thesis.are they useable?Saff V. (talk) 17:39, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
thesis are a bit of a grey area, who is the author?Slatersteven (talk) 14:36, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
It is the thesis. What do you think about this one? Is it reliable?Saff V. (talk) 04:54, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@Pavlor: @Winged Blades of Godric: I really appreciate you to give your opinion for the mentioned sources.Saff V. (talk) 05:02, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Two journals[edit]

Is it fine to use mentioned sources for following text in People's Mujahedin of Iran?

In 1982, as the government in Tehran led an expansive effort to limit women’s rights, the MEK adopted a female leadership. In 1987, the National Liberation Army (NLA), “saw female resistors commanding military operations from their former base at Camp Ashraf (in Diyala, Iraq) to Iran’s westernmost provinces, where they engaged alongside the men in armed combat with Iran’s regular and paramilitary forces.

Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 14:19, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
They would be RS.Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Musician Discographies from Allmusic and/or Discogs[edit]

I've been trying to fill out the discography for Jo Ann Kelly. I would like to use Discogs and/or Allmusic for external links to their discographies only. On the RS perennials list, it looks like Discogs may be appropriate as an external link, but it also looks like it might be a close call from the 2019 RfC on Discogs. Last I looked, Allmusic is OK for this purpose. My own research in trying to expand the article on Kelly indicates the Discogs discography is more complete because it includes posthumous re-releases and collections of her rarer recordings (not bootlegs). I'm not an expert on Kelly but I haven't found mistakes or wrong details in Discogs' version. I would prefer to use Discogs for this reason. Allmusic's version is... adequate but lacks detail. Currently I have both in the external links. Discogs link and Allmusic link Thoughts or comments? Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 20:13, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Most editors will not balk at using Discogs in the EL section, but a few might complain that it's user-generated and not appropriate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. That was my impression. I wouldn't use it if I couldn't verify details against other sources. In the body of the article, I'll use different sourcing/citations for album releases but as a consolidated list in EL, this would be easier. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 20:52, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I see no problems with both of them as links. You can't use Discogs as a source, but as an external link sure. That said, if Discogs and Allmusic both provide the same information, then only have one of them. Only include both if they both have information that is A) not on the other link and B) not in the article. If the information is duplicated either on the other link or article, then don't include the link. Canterbury Tail talk 11:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@Mark Ironie: WorldCat is a resource which may also be helpful for basic information on music releases. They use the {{OCLC}} format for identification and do have a substantial listing of Jo Ann Kelly's publications which are already listed under {{authority control}} in the article, although not many of the specialty re-releases you've mentioned are shown. Regards,  Spintendo  03:43, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Spintendo: Thanks for the tip. I've never dug into the authority control listings before and it does have some good info. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
A potential problem I've come across is when some of the user generated content on Discogs and non-review info on AllMusic conflicts with reliably sourced info included in the WP article, readers are unsure what to believe. I'm not sure how, but maybe a disclaimer can be worked into the links that warn readers that those sites may contain incorrect info and should only be used for a general overview of album releases. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
That is a really good suggestion about a disclaimer, Ojorojo, about incorrect info on Discogs. As I said, I plan to use actual RS for any releases mentioned in the body text. I think I'm cutting the Allmusic discography out. The Musicbrainz listing seems the worst of the lot. It doesn't even list all her primary releases during her lifetime (6 LPs) and some don't have release dates at all. If it's considered a RS, it contains several errors in Jo Ann Kelly's particular case. I'm still evaluating the Illustrated Jo Ann Kelly discography. It was a COI addition by the creator of Kelly's WP article. On principle, I should remove it. It also contains images which may be copyright violations (album and magazine covers, for example.) I'm pretty sure WP doesn't allow links out to sites with copyright violations on them but I need to refresh my memory on this point. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

─────────────────────────I could use some feedback and tweaking on a note for the Discogs EL. It will be put directly after the EL for Discogs. This is what I have: {{notetag|Discogs information may not be completely accurate. The content is [[WP:SELFPUBLISH|user-generated]]. It is a general overview of Kelly's album releases and may contain incorrect information. If there is a difference between Discogs data and sourced/cited content on this page, sourced information in this article is generally more accurate.}} I'm not happy with the WP:SELFPUBLISH link because it doesn't really cover Discogs accurately. I couldn't find a more pertinent section in the Verifiability policy. Mark Ironie (talk) 17:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

MEL Magazine[edit]

Hi all, just want some feedback on Mel Magazine. Seems like absolute garbage to me, appears to rely on advertorials for income and has a whole section dedicated to talking about penises. Bacondrum (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The specific edit in question was this. IMHO, it appears to have editorial oversight and is described as a lifestyle magazine. It seems similar to Jezebel (website) to me, which we do use as a source for certain topics. I don't endorse MEL or even know much about it, but it seemed good enough to cite as a source on MGTOW's article. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:08, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
The esteemed author of the specific article being cited seems a long way from anything I would describe as a journalist, or an authority on anything other than masturbation (literally). Bacondrum (talk) 22:33, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Hrm, tricky. Mel Magazine is a redirect to Dollar_Shave_Club#Products, which says In May 2015, the company began hiring writers and editors for a new website, Mel Magazine (stylized as MEL) which went online in late 2015. The website contains editorial content described by the company as "men's lifestyle topics". While the site does not host sponsored content, its business model "relies upon being a branded publisher", according to Fast Company. My first intuition was that that doesn't look like a great source, especially since everything in that sentence can be cited to Vice. But a "Mel+Magazine" Google News search for WP:USEBYOTHERS - always a good first step for obscure-seeming sources - shows an awful lot of reliable sources citing it, without much indication of skepticism outside the obviously important caveat that it is run by a brand (I wouldn't cite it for razor reviews!) I'd say it should be used with caution, especially for anything that has to do with its potential WP:BIAS implied by its status as... the Nintendo Power-esque publication of a razor-blade company? That does seem like what it is, doesn't it? But here's some decent use by other sources: AV Club, Vox,, NYmag, The Verge, The Atlantic. That's enough to show that other reliable sources consider it worth referencing for uncontroversial tidbits about masculinity-related culture stuff. (Honestly, that list is a decent chunk of the major WP:RSes who do cover the more online aspects of the topic.) So I think it's usable for this, which isn't that WP:EXCEPTIONAL a claim or anything (we have another source backing it up, and intuitively while the two groups are notionally in the manosphere they obviously have directly opposing takes.) --Aquillion (talk) 22:35, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Fair enough, thanks again. (as always, a well reasoned and detailed explanation) Bacondrum (talk) 23:32, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Use of Nazi propagandist advocating supremacy of German people and genocide of Poles in history of Poland[edit]

A map showing supposed extent of German settlement in Poland has been inserted in some articles concerning Polish history. The map was created by Nazi Walter Kuhn who I quote was a Nazi party member,[1] nationalist historian and Ostforschung researcher interested in linguistics and German minorities outside Germany, particularly in the area of Ukraine. During the war he was involved with Nazi re-settlement policies aimed at Jews, Poles and Germans. As a historian he was intoxicated with the idea of politically engaged scholarship and bereft of any criticism,[2] while demonstrating anti-Polish prejudices.[3] On October 11, 1939 Nazi Germany authorities published in secret a publication called "Eindeutschung Posens and Westpreusens" by German historians including Hermann Aubin, Albert Brackmann, Theodor Schieder, Ludwig Petry, Werner Trillmilch as well as Walter Kuhn himself. The mentioned historians advised to remove 2.9 million Poles and Jews from the area of Greater Poland, and proposed introduction of German settlers who would lead the "national fight against Poles". Several Polish cities were presented as ancient German possessions and the authors proposed a state settlement policy to ensure continued control over "German Lebensraum".[16]

The map has been reinserted with comment the quality of the work and the author's views and political stance should not be confused,[73]

However I believe based on assesment of Kuhn's work and beliefs that he is not neutral author that can be used to show German settlement in Poland, as he was a dedicated Nazi and as historian motivated by idea of political engagement and anti-Polish bias, who was also involved in propaganda showing Polish areas as Germans.

Therefore I do not belive he is a reliable source and would like to ask for opinion on this matter. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:31, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Given the historical context and importance of Ostsiedlung within German nationalism in general and Nazi propaganda in particular, it seems like it might be worth covering that map in that context as a representation of such Nazi propaganda. But to do that properly you'd have to also be able to source and describe how they manipulated it and perhaps have a section devoted to that. Ironically, if there are no such sources (ie. no specific reason to doubt the map outside its age and providence)... the map becomes hard to justify using for anything, because even in the absence of a clear indication of specific problems, there's no reason not to just use a more up-to-date source if one exists. 1939's Nazi-era scholarship is obviously not ideal to lean; as WP:RS says, However, some scholarly material may be outdated, in competition with alternative theories, or controversial within the relevant field. Try to cite current scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent. So I'd just find something more recent and replace it with that. --Aquillion (talk) 22:47, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
MyMoloboaccount has misrepresented the source of the map (can be seen here [74]). The source is in the image description, namely: Putzger – Historischer Weltatlas (Jubiläumsausgabe); 85. Auflage, 1963, Velhagen & Klasing (Bielefeld u.a.), S. 54f; Putzger – Historischer Weltatlas, 89. Auflage, 1965; Westermanns Großer Atlas zur Weltgeschichte, 1969; Haacks geographischer Atlas. VEB Hermann Haack Geographisch-Kartographische Anstalt, Gotha/Leipzig, 1. Auflage, 1979; dtv-Atlas zur Weltgeschichte Band 1: Von den Anfängen bis zur Französischen Revolution; 23. Aufl. 1989, ISBN 3-423-03002-X. All of these sources are post-war and cannot be described as Nazi scholarship, whatever Walter Kuhn may have done before the war. In fact, the map was not even created by Walter Kuhn, although it is partially based on his studies. It went through post-war editors in several fairly prestigious (if popular) publications in post-war Germany.
This has all already been discussed, MyMoloboaccount has not bothered to look at it. See Talk:Middle High German#The dtv-Atlas is now a contentious Nazi publication?--Ermenrich (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Nope, that map is cleary labeled as one based on Nazi Walter Kuhn in fragment you decided to cut out from your description above "Own work based on Walter Kuhn: Die bäuerliche deutsche Ostsiedlung-interestingly you decided to omit this part in your description. Also I note your comment in wikilink supporting use of Nazis on Wikipedia any former academic supporters of Nazism continued in their positions after the war, and there is not necessarily anything wrong with their research which is absolutely shocking.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

No, this map is "bearbeitet" by Walter Kuhn, i.e. he worked on it. It's from the dtv-Atlas.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:05, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Your sources are German. German is German, not neutral.Xx236 (talk) 08:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Excuse me, this argumentation cannot be taken serious, since just because a source is a German source, it does not mean it is necessarily non-neutral, then the same you may conclude to English, Polish, Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, Czechoslovak up till' to the infinity assuming all parties' sources are claiming "non-neutral" things to their benefit....NO, there are ANYLAND sources that are accurate, and as well that are NOT accurate, shall it belong to anyone, etc.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC))
  • I would be hesitant to use any map even based on, if not directly by, that particular person, as factual (except when discussing in context as noted above by Aquillion). There should be a better option somewhere. If there isnt a better option, then it could be used with a clear disclaimer as to its origins. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Only in the death, it is openly written on who's worked it is based.(KIENGIR (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC))
  • When and where was it published? Kuhn lived until 1983. If this was published pre-1945, and not discussed in sources subsequent to 1945 - I'd say it's a clear no-go (bias + out dated). However - file description supposedly lists sources well beyond 1945 (including one post-death - in 1989). If, as Ermenrich says, this is a map by susbsequent authors based on Kuhn's work - that's even less of a problem (and we should assess those authors - not their sources) - e.g. we wouldn't disqualify sources on Hypothermia that use data from the Dachau freezing experiments.Icewhiz (talk) 11:13, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
My understanding is that it is most directly based on the last source, the dtv-Atlas. At any rate, it is certainly from after the war, not one of Kuhn's publications in support of Nazi policy in Poland.--Ermenrich (talk)
If this is appears in the dtv Atlas (dewiki) - I'd say it is usable (and this Atlas has modern republications) - as in this case we have dtv and reasonable authors as a mediator. If this is based off of Kuhn directly - it is quite suspect. I suggest that an attempt to verify this map appearing in the dtv-Atlas (+accompanying text there - e.g. we want them presenting this as factual (as opposed to a historical POV stance)) be made - and then a more informed decision here could be made. If it is in dtv-Atlas to commons file should be more clearly attributed to it. Icewhiz (talk) 12:13, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
@Pfold: you did some sleuthing last time this came up, what did you find?
I'd also like to add that the majority of Kuhn's publications are from after the war, see here [75]--Ermenrich (talk)
Can't remember all the details now. My original comment was at [76] and the key point was: "The fact that the ultimate source of the map is not a publication of Kuhn's but from a series of historical atlases means that independent editorial teams in post-war Germany have found Kuhn's map acceptable." It's also worth pointing out that the map posted on WP was in any case simpified from the original. The fact that Kuhn's original is used on a university's "Poland in the Classrom" site suggests that the supposed evils of this map are in the eye of the beholder.I find the objections to the map are not WP:NPOV and should be rejected on those grounds. --Pfold (talk) 16:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

World Population Review[edit]

I missed the earlier discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 261#World Population Review, but I just came across the site's entry for Bangkok,[77] and all of the text is clearly plagiarised (closely paraphrased without attribution) from Wikipedia. I'd suggest that the site should be regarded as an unreliable source, and references to it should be replaced and removed. Pinging Cordless Larry, who initiated the earlier discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

"Most demographic data is hidden in spreadsheets, behind complex APIs, or inside cumbersome tools. World Population Review's goal is to make this data more accessible through graphs, charts, analysis and visualizations. We also strive to present the most recent information available, and develop our own projections based on recent growth." Apparently the creator of this resource is... "Shane". Absent some evidence that any of the original "analysis" conducted by this source is frequently cited or otherwise held in high regard by academic sources, I'd say there is simply no point citing it. If there is anything worthwhile on WPR, just cite their own source for it. It's not like UN reports become more reliable from being filtered through "Shane". Someguy1221 (talk) 02:59, 20 August 2019 (UTC)